Animal Minds; how much can we learn about them? (Animals)

by David Turell , Wednesday, December 09, 2015, 00:50 (3271 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: Anything with a brain may have a degree of consciousness. I have no problem with that.
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> dhw: Since it's a matter of degree, theoretically that should allow our weaverbird, egg-on-spider-laying wasp, monarch butterfly, ants and bees the possibility of doing their own thing, as opposed to being preprogrammed. You just don't think they're intelligent enough.-No, I've agreed they might have an onboard inventive mechanism/
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> dhw: Then we agree that your drive to complexity, which is my quest or drive for improvement, goes all the way back to single-celled organisms.-Yes, it has to exist back then. Bacteria had no reason to become more complex. -> dhw: The same history applies, of course, to many other characteristics which some people consider to be uniquely human. (This is not aimed at you personally. I am making a general observation.) There are many people who believe that altruism, grief, fear, love, stress etc. are strictly human attributes, and it is ”anthropomorphic” to ascribe them to our fellow creatures.-Many animals show those characteristics. 
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> dhw: Bacteria communicate through chemicals. Plants also communicate through chemicals. Animals use chemicals. Even we use chemicals. How does this ‘invalidate' thought? I know you will never back down. I am only pointing out that you use an irrelevant argument to support your case. I sympathize with the need for scientific proof, but actually this is not MY thesis: it comes from some experts in the field who are convinced that they have the proof. But obviously not enough for you to open your mind just a tiny crack.-It's funny but the ID scientists haven't cracked either.