Language and Logic (General)

by dhw, Friday, April 04, 2014, 18:53 (3884 days ago) @ romansh

For Romansh-I'd drafted a response to you and Tony before reading your latest, and it is clear that you do not understand why we both believe you have used ambiguity to distort the argument. Let me try once more to explain the problem. Your original statement, which is what we are complaining about, was in isolation. You asked me why lack of free will should not be the default position, and I answered that "if you managed to convince everyone that nothing they do is their responsibility, you might find yourself living in a society that is even more chaotic than the one we live in now." You responded: "This is utter supposition. The sun is responsible for hurricanes. Do you wish to argue against this?" I pointed out that you had tried to substitute the causal meaning that clearly relates to the sun for the conventional moral meaning relating to people, as if the meaning were the same in both contexts. That in my book is ambiguity. As Tony says, it was only when this was pointed out to you that you acknowledged the different meanings, although (to my dismay) you still issued the same "are you denying" challenge to Tony!
 
Sadly, your latest post contains yet another ambiguity: "I think it is a nonsense to hold the sun as morally accountable..." (So, of course, do we all)..."and if free will is false people too (I would certainly agree). But even if free will is true it is a nonsense to hold both the sun and people as morally accountable."-Since nobody would hold the sun as morally accountable, of course it is a nonsense to hold BOTH the sun and people as morally accountable. Most of us would only hold people to be morally accountable. We regard the sun as causally responsible and people as morally responsible (the two meanings you telescoped in your first comment and question). Do you mean that even if free will is true, people are not morally accountable? That would be an interesting topic of discussion, but what then is the point of your saying "BOTH the sun and people..."?
 
I share Tony's frustration, because your use of ambiguity has led to a discussion of your own motives instead of our focusing on the real issues. But if you really cannot see the ambiguities, then let's move on. The subject of what constitutes the self, consciousness and free will deserves a higher level of thought than this.