Fundamentalism (General)

by Walter, Sunday, November 09, 2008, 09:54 (5655 days ago) @ David Turell

Carl, I am reassured by your agreement that Iraq was a complete disaster, and Bush should be charged with international crimes if he was guilty of deception. I think you are beginning to get the message. But there is still a long way to go. - You missed the point about Nixon and Clinton, whose conduct was officially investigated while they were still in office. Clinton was found not guilty, and Nixon resigned before he could be chucked out. There has been no inquiry into Bush's conduct (or Blair's), and I asked what sort of message that sends out to the world. Its OK to bomb foreigners under false pretences (whether through deception or through incompetence), but if you tell a few porkies at home, out you go. At least we now agree on this. I presume "malice aforethought" is a joke. The charge would be war crimes and probably crimes against humanity. - You are plain wrong over the UN approving the invasion. The mandate you refer to was passed in June 2004 (over a year after the invasion) to allow US troops to stay in Iraq and provide security and support for the transitonal government, though it's a mute point whether their presence does more harm than good. The UN never approved the invasion, and the Secretary General Kofi Annan said categorcally that it was illegal. When the US and Britain draughted a resolution to put to the Security Council, they could only muster support from four countries (they needed 9 out of 15). - Carl and David, I have not forgotten that the Iraqis have contributed to the millions of dead etc. My argument is that the US and UK are directly responsible because they created the conditions for civil war ... something that was predicted by many commentators in the run-up to the war. The chaos we created unleashed all the forces that Saddam kept under control ... quite apart from providing the breeding ground for new generatons of west-hating terrorists. This is no defence of Saddam, he was a brutal dictator and the world is well rid of him. But he was not the reason given for the invasion. - David, I said there were no WMDs and you say you beg to differ, because thisa fact only came to light after the war started. You've missed the point. The war was started because Bush and co said there WERE WMDs. The inspectors and the majority of the UN said there was not enough evidence, and that was why they opposed the invasion. The US had no right to start a war under those circumstances. You say about Al Quaeda, "it depends which analysts you read or listen to what the truth is. I tend to believe what I have read." That doesnt make sense unless you only read the analysts who share your beliefs. - What upsets me most about Carls comments is that you say its dishonest to judge Bush and Blair with 20/20 hindsight. My reasoning process is absolutely not overridden by my horror at the outcome, and its highly presumptous of you to even think that. Hundreds of thousands of us protested against the war even before the invasion, and if youir own condemnation of it is with hindsight, that is to your discredit. In February 2003, i.e.. before the invasion, there were massive demonstratons all over the world, including many in your own country, but perhaps you were not aware of them. 3 million people demonstrated in Rome alone. Robin Cook the British Foreign Secretary resigned in protest, with dire warnings about the number of innocent people who would be killed, and many commentaters predicted precisely what would happen. I got into heated arguments with people like yourself who simply didn't understand what was going on, but most of the people I know were as opposed to the invasion then as I was and I'm pleased to say that most of the others now acknowlege that they were wrong. The consequences were already clear before the invasion took place, although I will grant you that none of us could have predicted the actual scale of the disaster. When the invasion did take place, we all hoped it would be quick and somehow the coalition would find a way to keep the country under control. Now we hope that order will be established. But we also want to see those responsible for the chaos held to account.