How do agnostics live? (Introduction)

by George Jelliss , Crewe, Friday, July 11, 2008, 22:16 (5768 days ago) @ Mark

Mark: George finds two of my remarks insulting and another one arrogant, which I am sorry about. I did not intend to give offence. - George: No offense taken. In fact I found the insults amusing. - Mark: An atheist does not believe in objective morality. - George: There are many different sorts of atheists. Atheism - not believing in gods - does not imply any one particular view of morality. Atheists can be Marxists or Capitalists or believe in all sorts of other things, entirely separate from their views about religion. - Mark: There is nothing out there which is the basis for moral laws. It comes down to personal preference, likes and dislikes, aesthetics. - George; I have already argued that there is an objective basis, namely reason. If a doctor has a choice of two treatments for a patient, he makes the choice on the basis of evidence of what is likely to be the best outcome for the patient, not one hopes on which colour of medicine he prefers. - Mark: George argues that reason is the basis for morality. How can reason get you started on morality? If you say, for example, that we need to maximise human happiness, then I agree that reason can get you some way towards rules which help. But reason cannot tell you that human happiness is desirable. - George: As a human, and a humanist, it seems perfectly valid to me to base my ethics on the needs of humans in relation to the rest of life and the universe around us. It seems to me that you are trying to deny your own humanity and seeking to become some sort of "superhuman" species or like some kind of "ethereal" being (an angel perhaps?). - Mark: Indeed, an interesting point is how atheists allow any disciplined formation of moral character. - George: The discipline for a rationalist is to be objective, to base one's decisions on the evidence available, not on personal wish fulfilment. - Mark: ... while there are differences in ethics between people, humanity's greater problem is that even when we know what is right we are inclined to do what is wrong? The flaw is in our nature more than in our rules. Christianity is based on hope of the renewal of humanity for which help is needed from beyond ourselves. Atheism seems relatively optimistic about humanity. - George: Christianity does have this problem with "original sin" or "the fall" from some sort of original perfection as envisaged in the garden of Eden. Humanists accept that we are the product of evolution. - Mark: The Church, at its best, is a hospital for sinners. Do atheists have hospitals? - George: Yes, they are called hospitals! Assuming that you are using the term "sin" to mean moral falure, rather than in its religious sense, people who are addicted to drugs or cannot control their behavour are treated there if possible, or else in prison. - Mark: I try to follow what I believe are God's laws, trusting that he has a perspective which transcends everything. - George: I prefer reason based on evidence. "God's Laws" are only what certain men have claimed are God's Laws.