How do agnostics live? (Introduction)

by George Jelliss , Crewe, Friday, June 27, 2008, 21:15 (5782 days ago) @ Mark

First, there are points in an earlier post that Mark asked me to respond to:
 
Mark: "My point was that atheists can find no basis for their morality other than to state as a brute fact that it is part of our nature. There is nothing else which tells them that they should live that way." - George: Reason, Logic, Evidence. These are the criteria by which truth is found. Ethics or moralty is about finding what is best for us to do. Best that is for us as Individuals, for us as Society, for us as Human beings, for us as Life-forms, for us as part of the Universe. Reasoning these things out is of course a difficult process. - Mark: "Atheists explain both this moral sense and religion with the theory of natural selection." - George: Some may take that view, but it is not mine. Evolution has no doubt given us empathic abilities, and loyalty to the species. However recent ethical developments, like abolition of slavery, development of ideas of human rights, etc, are down to the Enlightenment movement, based on Reason. - Mark: "There is no difference in kind, that I can see, between an atheist's decision to be against murder and his decision never to walk around on all fours." - George: You have a nice line in insults! - ====== - Now to the more recent post: - dhw: "If God wants us to do good, who do we do good to? I can only measure good and bad in terms of the happiness, relief of suffering, welfare etc. of myself and my fellow creatures." - Mark: "I can understand what you are saying, and to a degree I think this drives us all. But I would say it is inadequate simply because a lot of the time we are not able to determine the consequences of our actions. It makes for a rather short term view. It is not surprising that we differ on this since I have an eternal perspective." - George: If I may say so this shows an extraordinary arrogance! - Mark: "If all I were interested in was maximizing happiness, then I couldn't be sure that murder is always wrong or honesty always right." - George: They aren't always wrong/right. We authorise soldiers to kill for us under suitable conditions, and we used to authorise judges to order executions. - Mark: "I need principles to live by." - George: We all live by such principles, but they are not commandments never to be disobeyed, they are codes of practive, rules of thumb, civilised customs. - Mark: "Christianity is not simplistic. I'm not claiming that. It can be hard work for the church to know what is good, and, of course, even harder work to do it. Atheists have nothing like this discipline." - George: Another straight insult. As I've noted above, being ethical in our lives is hard work, for everyone. - Mark: "Indeed, an interesting point is how atheists allow any disciplined formation of moral character. It isn't something that is "practised" in the way that Christianity is, with a pattern of prayer, reading, listening, community accountability." - George: As I've pointed out before, "the church" does not have a clear moral stance on any number of issues. They are split down the middle on many of the most important current questions.