How do agnostics live? (Introduction)

by dhw, Monday, June 16, 2008, 08:39 (5786 days ago) @ Mark

Mark agrees that without humans there would be no wrong, but "good exists whether or not humans do". - This is like saying that God, who is all good, exists independently of humans, and apart from the obvious agnostic "if", I can hardly disagree. - But we are still miles apart on the issue of humanist versus religious principles of morality. As an example, you offered me the choice of torturing and killing a child and myself in order to save six billion people, and you had no hesitation in letting the six billion die. The other examples you have given knock off a few noughts, but I think we should stick to your extreme scenario, because it is more clear-cut. The problem is not a choice between right and wrong, but between two wrongs ... the lesser of two evils. Your Rowan Williams quote suggests that he too has a major problem with what he calls these "moral conundrums", though I'd be amazed and horrified if he chose to sacrifice six billion people rather than kill two. - Perhaps you will allow me to give you a much more realistic scenario. Your wife is being brutally raped by a complete stranger, who says he will kill her and next he will rape and kill your daughter. Do you stand by and quote Matthew: "Resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also"? - You say that "Christians do not do good in order to win God's favour", and "the motive to do good is not to achieve some personal gain in this life or the next." Are Christians superhuman? If you did something of which you thought God disapproved, would you be happy? If you do something of which you think God approves, do you not get a feeling of satisfaction? All of us have to live with ourselves, and personal gain is not just a matter of making a profit. - You say "It is fundamental to the Christian faith that God's love precedes any good on our part and is unconditional." What does that mean? Will he love us even if we break his moral code and fail to repent of our sins? How unconditional was God's love for Noah's contemporaries, or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah? And aren't we told that "the wages of sin is death"? What about the billions of non-Christians: "He that believeth on him [Jesus] is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God" (John 3, 18)? I don't wish to sound offensive, but frankly, that's not my idea of unconditional love.