How do agnostics live? (Introduction)

by dhw, Wednesday, June 11, 2008, 09:42 (6010 days ago) @ Mark

Mark asks "whether moral truth is objective in the sense that it has reality outside of human minds. Is it real?" - Firstly, Mark, I did not think for one minute that you were only after the "satisfaction of winning arguments". I hope none of us are. Second, let me say that while siding with atheism in the context of this discussion, I am not an atheist. - I would question your basic premise. It presupposes that reality is only to be found outside the human mind. I don't want to move into the Berkeley mode of "subjective idealism" (virtually the opposite of your premise), but I don't see how we can get round the problem of what constitutes reality. This boils down to a kind of consensus. - We can agree that the earth rotates round the sun. Scientists have observed it, no scientist disputes it, and for the purpose of our discussion you and I can say categorically that the sun and the earth exist independently of ourselves; this is as objective a truth as humans can hope for. - "Murder is wrong" refers to a totally different kind of reality. If there were no humans, there would be no murder. If there were no humans, there would be no wrong. But if there were no humans, I think you and I would agree that the earth would still rotate round the sun. My point here is that some realities are independent of humans and others are not. A parallel might be the rules that govern football. They don't exist outside humanity, but in order to play the game, we all acknowledge their "reality", though as with moral codes, we change them when they no longer serve their purpose. Think of society's changing attitude towards homosexuality, illegitimacy, debt. - In the case of "murder is wrong", there is a consensus throughout the human world that murder is against the interests of society ... it is too harmful to be allowed. Even here, though, there is a degree of subjective latitude in the definition: if a Muslim had killed Salman Rushdie, I would have regarded it as murder, but the killer would have considered it a justifiable religious act. Ditto the fundamentalist suicide bombers who kill the people around them. But "Murder is wrong" remains a common human judgment and ... to answer part of your question ... this is what provides the foundation for its authority, and it is the smooth running of society that constitutes its purpose. Atheists live in society, and their materialism is irrelevant to society's moral codes, while it is not the business of science to "deliver... moral truth". - However, you have actually combined two questions in your posting, and the second of these takes me out of the atheist camp and into my agnostic neutrality: "What kind of stuff is 'good'? Does it arise from matter? If so, how? If not, where from?" Once we have human society, we have to have moral codes in order to function, but how inanimate matter could come to life, could become conscious of itself, form concepts, feel emotions, question its own existence...this is a mystery that makes it impossible for me to discount the idea that there is a supreme intelligence at work. We can include in the list love of one's fellow creatures, which in my view should be the basis of all our moral codes but unfortunately isn't. Once again, though, let me stress that atheists are just as capable of this love as theists are. In other words, I am suggesting that while morality is a reality that requires no references outside humanity, our ability to devise such codes remains a mystery. - You end your posting by saying that you are trying to see "what follows from disbelief in God". I can only tell you what follows from my own non-belief (not the same) in God: I adhere to the same moral codes as you, except that I centre them on humanity and not on God. However, I also gaze every day at the beauty of the world and marvel at the magnanimity and ingenuity of God - if he's there; then I look at the suffering of the world, and wonder what the hell he's playing at - if he's there.