Ain\'t nature wonderful (Introduction)

by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Friday, August 20, 2010, 01:41 (5209 days ago) @ David Turell


> > 1. The fungus and ant had a long history even before 48M years ago. Perhaps this species of fungus was able to infect, during the eukaryotic stage, a subset of eukaryotes, Consequently, the arms race between eukaryote and fungi resulted in what we see now.
> 
> I don't know of an intermediate steps from a Cambrian beginning to our present ants. Perhaps EO wilson does. But you are presuming a fungus with an established lifecycle invaded some pre-ant organism. Then both changed simultaneously to the symbiosis we now see. All by Darwinian chance or by a complex interaction of both species epigenetic mechanisms? I'll take well-established designed epigenetic mechanisms any day. 
> > -David--as I've mentioned before I don't see AT ALL how what I'm saying here isn't accepted paradigm! How is epigenetics any different from natural selection, when as I observed previously--the filter that IS natural selection is the ultimate arbiter of what gets to stay???-> > 2. (My favorite.) The fungus started out as a beneficial organism. Termites use bacteria to transform cellulose into sugar. Some ants developed an overactive immune reaction to the fungi, triggering competition; ultimately ending in the form we see today. At some point, the ant--out of the genetic diversity needed to fight the organism, simply has to take the abuse. Clearly, some ants MUST be immune to this parasite, or clearly--we wouldn't have leaf-cutter ants. 
> 
> This is a specialized symbiosis, for special ants and for special fungus. Again I don't see how Darwinian chance can arrange for these guys to waltz together so well. Again, you are implying epigenetics, which had to be present over 550 million years ago to satisfy the time line of the Cambrian and the "plant bloom" period slightly later.
> > -And I fail to see how a designer explains this any better! Help me out here!-> > 3. Like how C. difficile works in humans--if you have a normal intestinal flora, the bacteria can never take hold.
> 
> Don't really see how this fits. Normal flora are competition to other bacteria. I know C. difficile infect about 40% of the world implying their symbiosis with us, but your 3rd proposal doesn't make any sense in the above discussion. Ant and fungus gradually developed their weird relationship. 
> > -Started out as a symbiotic organism that went bad. Requires no designer. In terms of how symbiotic systems arise, mitochondria are a prime example; they gained protection and early organisms got lots of cheap energy. -> > If you want, I can keep going. Like origins, we can come up with any number of explanations, but again, only those that can be verified or tested should be trusted or used.
> 
> Please keep going. You are proving my point.-How? None of the situations I described requires a designer to explain. At no point have I been forced to add an assumption of design.

--
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\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"