More "miscellany" (General)

by dhw, Tuesday, December 07, 2021, 07:23 (44 days ago) @ David Turell

Reality: God is a mathematician
DAVID: Your human God has to come up with new ideas. My God has all the purposes known in advance of all actions He performs.

dhw: Coming up with new ideas is one of three options above, each of which starts out with a known purpose! […] And please don’t tell me that I regard a bodiless, eternal, conscious mind capable of creating universes and life as “human”. I simply believe, as you have repeatedly agreed, that if he exists, he probably has some thought patterns like our own, and indeed that we may “mimic” him.

DAVID: We may mimic Him in limited ways, but you have Him mimicking us!!

If he created us, then his thought patterns came first, and ours must mirror (“mimic”) his, not the other way round! This is just another way of saying that we have thought patterns in common, so it is absurd to admit this and then to complain if a theory shows him to have thought patterns in common with ours.

Monarchs use toxic milkweed
DAVID: Immune responses are automatic and designed by God. Ditto Monarchs

dhw: Even if your fixed belief was true and 3.8 billion years ago your God designed every undabbled antibody/antidote for the rest of life’s history, it wouldn’t change or explain the fact the invader kills some victims but others survive, and that the immune response FOLLOWS the invasion and is not concurrent with it but has to be developed.

DAVID: Yes, by God's designed mechanism for producing new antibodies.

I am quite prepared to accept the possibility that your God designed the mechanism for producing new antibodies! I do not accept that the new antibodies are already there when the invader strikes, and I keep pointing out that NEW antibodies are a RESPONSE to new invaders, which suggests that the mechanism is able to process new information, communicate with other cells, take decisions etc. – all the hallmarks of intelligence. Nor do I accept that new invaders kill every victim without there being any survivors.

Denisovans
DAVID: God knew mistakes would happen beyond His editing controls so a variety of human forms would develop useful attributes using His designed protective systems.

dhw: This is not just a question of him knowing the future! According to you, he specifically designed every species of animal and of human. And yet the only species of human he wanted to design was sapiens. And according to you, he was/is perfectly capable of designing species without any predecessors (the Cambrian). So we come to the next quote about human evolution:

QUOTE: "To me, however, all of human evolution, even well after our own species first emerged, is a mess of branches and dead ends. Our evolutionary history is complicated, and we should embrace that."

dhw: Sums it up – a mess of branches and dead ends, but it actually applies to the whole history of evolution. Fits in perfectly with the concept of a free-for-all.

DAVID: Argumentative voices add to our thoughts. I think the dhw theory is right on, but I come with a slightly different twist. God didn't want a free-for-all.

dhw: Which of my theories do you agree with, then?[…]

DAVID: You view a large bush of hominins/homos as God's free-for-all in making H. sapiens. I view it differently, fully under God's control as a means of developing different attributes for the final sapiens to have. The 'right-on' is my re-interpretation of your view of the pre-human bush.

You have ignored my alternatives (experimentation, or a flow of new ideas). So my theory of a free-for-all is “right on” except that you believe the exact opposite. And you still ignore the incongruity of the theory bolded above.

evolution driven by extinctions
DAVID: Life and inorganic systems are intertwined as this study shows. Changes in the amount of living matter can alter the climate and cause extinctions which change the course of evolution. These systems are in a delicate balance, without which we wouldn't be here. The huge bush of life is simply a part of those required systems, something dhw doesn't understand when he asks why God didn't simply produce humans instead of all that really happened.

I do not question what really happened. I only ask why your all-powerful God would go to all the trouble of deliberately designing all those life forms – the vast majority of which had no connection with humans plus food – and now all these environmental changes and extinctions in order to produce us and our food, although according to you he was perfectly capable of designing new species directly (e.g. the Cambrian). You admit that you have no idea and I should ask God to explain it, and yet you still insist that it’s logical.


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