More "miscellany" (General)

by dhw, Friday, December 03, 2021, 08:38 (49 days ago) @ David Turell

Reality: God is a mathematician
DAVID: The processes that run the universe automatically use God's information.

dhw: So now it’s processes that run the universe, and not God and not information. Suits me. Theistic theory: Your God created the information that enables the process of evolution to run itself automatically. None of this business of your God individually designing every life form, lifestyle, econiche, natural wonder etc. (though he could always dabble if he wanted to). Thank you.

DAVID: God set automatic processes into motion for the universe, not life's evolution.

How do you know?

Monarchs use toxic milkweed
DAVID: The dhw bold: "The disease or poison will go on killing until the cells come up with a counter to it." How do 'killed' cells come up with an answer??? The answer is that design produces an antidote set of DNA mutation changes.

dhw: Of course it’s not the killed cells that come up with the answer. Humans invent ways of killing bacteria by the billion but there are always survivors and sooner or later the survivors come up with an answer. Covid has killed millions of us, but millions of us have survived and (we hope) formed antibodies. Yes, I agree that design comes up with an antidote, but I do not agree that the antidote is concurrent with the disease/poison. It comes into being as cells RESPOND to the disease/poison – no matter how the cells acquired their ability to respond.

DAVID: All caterpillars eat toxic milkweed!! Somehow a few lucky ones were not killed? You have theorized luck to avoid God's designs.

They do NOW! NOW they have the “antibodies”! Why do you ignore the point I have made above about bacteria and Covid? I am not theorizing luck. These are facts that are illustrated over and over again in our present. First comes the “invader”, then comes the response, and there are deaths and there are survivors before the defence is perfected.

dhw: And do you really believe that without the specially designed milkweed toxin and the specially designed resistance to it, humans could never have existed and could never have had a food supply? Over the last hundred years, vast numbers of your God’s specially designed species have gone extinct[…] , and yet the human population has increased on a massive scale. Clearly even these species were not “part of the goal of evolving [= designing] humans” and their food, since we have flourished without them.

DAVID: You are now caught up in the liberal group think worry about species disappearing and identifying 'endangered species', when we know full well 99% of all past specie are extinct. Why must some humans worry about changing the path of extinction history??? Humans are here despite all those terrible extinctions. Do you want dinos back?

dhw: I have no idea what point you are making. Mine is that humans didn’t need all the life forms and foods of the past that had no connection with them, and even in the present we can survive without large numbers of the species etc. you say your purposeful God designed to be our food. So why did he design them if we don't need them?

DAVID: It is your lack of understanding the need for all ecosystems that is showing.

All ecosystems are necessary for the life forms that exist within them. What you do not seem to understand is that there have been different ecosystems and different life forms for 3.X billion years, and the vast majority had no connection with humans and their ecosystems, which makes nonsense of your theory that all life forms and all ecosystems were “part of the goal of evolving [= designing] humans” and their food. As you yourself have said, these systems were for the past, not the present, and extinct life has no role in current life.

Denisovans
QUOTE: "[…] With these 200,000-year-old bones, researchers have also for the first time discovered stone artifacts linked to these extinct relatives of modern humans.

DAVID: each group of early humans followed the same path of development of lifestyles as God's endpoint of evolution.

dhw: So why do you think he designed them, if the only ones he wanted were sapiens?

DAVID: With interbreeding each group provided new good attributes for the eventual final humans, as previously discussed.

But since according to you your God is perfectly capable of creating the species he wants without predecessors (e.g. during the Cambrian explosion), you are still left with the question why he created sapiens in such a roundabout way if sapiens was the only species he wanted. Possible theistic explanations: 1) sapiens was not the only species he wanted; 2) sapiens was the species he wanted, and he was experimenting in order to “perfect” the design; 3) as he proceeded with different designs, he had more and more new ideas; 4) your God “set automatic processes into motion for the universe”, including that of evolution. In other words, he invented a process that ran itself in a vast free-for-all. Four theistic explanations which, as you have agreed many times, logically fit the facts of history, in stark contrast to your own admission that you have no idea why God would have opted for your own theory, as bolded above.

xxxxx
I shan’t be posting anything tomorrow.


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