Dualism (Identity)

by dhw, Wednesday, May 06, 2020, 12:31 (1661 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: -[…] At each stage of hominin or homo the organisms soul in life can only think up to a complexity level the existing complex form of brain allows.

dhw: […] I wrote: “The only remaining difference is your insistence that the dualist’s brain has to be changed [i.e. by God][/b] before the dualist’s soul can come up with any new thoughts, whereas I propose that it is the thoughts of the soul that change the brain.” […] You have merely repeated that in different words.

DAVID: No I haven't. The bold applies. We are following different thoughts. I still maintain God expands larger more complex brains which allows the soul to have more complex thoughts. Same motto: a brain is capable of thinking only at a level the brain networks allow.

You mean the soul is capable of thinking….The only change you’ve made is to individual words: God has to change (expand) the brain, and the expansion allows the soul to think more complex (new) thoughts, i.e. more complex (new) thoughts can only be thought after God has expanded the brain. Boils down to the same.

DAVID: Since the soul must use the brain circuits to think, it can produce complex artifacts only to the level the brain complexity allows.

dhw: "To think" is too vague. I thought we agreed that the soul uses the brain for information and for implementation (= design and production), to which you added memory. The rest of your sentence is exactly right according to my theory: if the existing brain complexity did not allow the production of the complex artefact, it had to expand in order to design and produce the artefact. (In the modern brain, it would complexify instead of expanding).

DAVID: Your usual confused interpretation of what I present. See statements above. For brain size to advance God is needed.

We agree that the artefact can only be PRODUCED to the level the brain allows. You say God has to expand the brain before the initial idea ("kill from distance") is conceived, designed and produced, and I say it is the design and production of the artefact that expands the brain! There is no confusion – just two different views of the timing and the cause of expansion.

DAVID: Our brain has helped the soul to produce our current complex civilization. The bolded portion of your statement, always forgets what I have just written. THE SOUL ALWAYS USES THE LIVING BRAIN'S NETWORKS TO DEVELOP THOUGHTS, JUST AS I DO. My version of dualism: soul immaterial, brain material. In death, purely immaterial soul remembers, thinks as NDE's demonstrate. Over the years this has never changed, but you keep pouncing every time I don't mention all of it. WHY?

dhw: No disagreement on any of this, especially your block capitals. Yes, the soul needs the brain to “DEVELOP” thoughts[…]I have explained above (first paragraph) why I “pounce” on "Only an advanced brain can have advanced thoughts." Your theory of expansion preceding new thoughts makes perfect sense if the brain is the source of thought (materialism)! It does not make sense if the soul is the source of thought (dualism).

DAVID: It makes perfect sense if you accept God expands and complexifies the more advanced brain, which the soul can then use to think and design.

Please let’s clarify this once and for all. The soul uses the brain to gather information and to design and produce the artefact (and you added access to memory). Yes or no? If no, please tell us what else it uses the brain for. If yes, and the soul is the source of thought, why can’t it think new thoughts using existing information and without the brain expanding/complexifying? That is at the core of my theory - original thought: “kill from distance”, IMPLEMENTATION causes expansion.

DAVID: We are still arguing at cross purposes. You are trying to establish from known facts a possible way brains enlarged naturally, no God involved.

Wrong. God may have invented the mechanism whereby the cells of the brain organize its expansion.

DAVID: The theory simply boils down to hard thought drives enlargement.

Correct.

DAVID: It is pure invention from wishful thinking. I see no natural support for it.

Do you deny that the modern brain is changed by hard thinking? If you agree, why do you think ancient brains could NOT have been changed by hard thinking?

DAVID: And my God theory says: a brain/soul can only think of advanced thought if the networks are sufficiently advanced to allow creation of those thoughts.

What your theory says is no answer to the logic of my theory. Why do you say “brain/soul can only think…”? As a dualist, do you believe that the brain thinks, or the soul uses the brain in the manner I have bolded above?