Information as the source of life; not by chance II (Introduction)

by David Turell , Wednesday, January 22, 2020, 16:11 (1766 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: a carefully thought-out explanation of the information in DNA, what it stands for in the product and processes related, and the need for a creating mind to form it. dhw has always had trouble in accepting that the information found in life needs a mind to explain its origin.

dhw: Your last remark is a total misrepresentation. I reject your claim that information needs an intelligent mind to form it. It does need an intelligent mind to find it, process it and use it. We covered all this before, and now you want to go over it all again! I thought we had agreed that information is present in all things, it is totally passive, and it exists independently of any observers. [David’s bolds] Again: It takes an intelligent mind to extract information from all things and to use it. In answer to the question: How can you have an abstract representation of something that doesn’t exist? You can’t. But information is not an abstract representation. Order of procedure: 1) the thing exists and contains all the information – i.e. the facts, details, characteristics, properties etc. - about itself; the mind comes along and examines the thing and creates words for the facts, details etc. as an abstract representation of what it has found. Of course an intelligent mind can also create information, and once it is created, intelligent minds can use it, but information itself cannot create or use anything, and so how can it possibly be the source of life as proclaimed in the heading of this thread? [dhw’s bold]

DAVID: The first bold is wrong as creating DNA information requires a mind.

dhw: The rest of your post is dedicated to DNA! Do you think DNA is the only information in existence? Now please read my own bold at the end of my post, including “an intelligent mind can also create information”. Why don’t you answer my question?

DAVID: The second bold is all we have agreed to. What is really the issue is the genome, containing information. DNA as the inanimate molecule fits our agreement. What is the problem is presented by the author. DNA is a code that contains useful information that creates life, when translated. The issue you constantly sidestep is that in human experience, only mental activity can originate the information in the DNA code and probably designed the DNA code-ability molecule itself. Chance cannot be an issue. Therefore that mind exists.

dhw: Only a mind can create a railway timetable, the laws of cricket, and a lollipop. Information is not their source, and information is not the source of DNA or of life. Please read my bold again and answer it.

You should edit a bit better. The word 'source' is the key to my meaning in the headline. we all use sourced material to help us developing n idea or a process. DNA is a 'source' for the creation of life and it contains the information to create a translating mechanism to read the DNA. You are picking on a headline to confuse the debate.

DAVID: Agreed, information in and of itself is inert. It requires creation and interpretation or translation. In my view, a mind that could create such a magnificent code is also capable of providing the automatic translation machinery. Establishing the true inertness of information itself does not help your view of the origin of the information, the real point of the article.

dhw: How can information require anything if it is in and of itself “inert”? It requires creation only in the sense that information cannot exist in a total void, but the word “creation” does not mean it needs a conscious mind to create it. There is information in a grain of sand! And it will still be there even if there is no mind to interpret or translate it.

Once again you are off on a tangent. The inert information in DNA has to have a source that created it. How did the information in the coded DNA get there? It had to be created in some way. The point of the original article, we are discussing, claimed it required mental activity by a mind. You are fighting that meaning with confusion over the meaning of a headline. Why does the discussion of the source of the information underlying life frighten you so much? We both know it had to be created or life would not exist,.