Human Consciousness: how we observe (Humans)

by dhw, Thursday, August 18, 2016, 20:59 (2802 days ago) @ David Turell

Once again I am editing sections of our exchanges to keep the arguments clearAVID: I also believe consciousness requires a brain to be received, as shown by NDE studies. This fits dualism.-dhw: NDE studies suggest the exact opposite…-DAVID: No. van Lommel's book, Consciousness Beyond Life, 2010, basically proposes dualism in that the brain is a receiver (like a radio). While the brain is unconscious because it is not functioning, the NDE person's consciousness still receives the info of the episode and passes it back to the person when their brain revives. -Dhw: …The “dead” patients retain their identity, and perceive and communicate with other “dead” people, i.e. they receive information without having a functioning brain. When disembodied consciousness returns to the body, of course it remembers its experiences. If I put on my dualist hat (as usual, I am agnostic on this issue), I would suggest that the receiving brain is only required to relay information to the body. If one does not have a body, one does not need a brain. To sum it up, NDEs seem to suggest that consciousness does NOT require a brain to be received, and that is precisely the reason why they are cited as evidence for dualism and for life after death.-DAVID: Your conclusions are not van Lommel's. I don't follow your reasoning at all; in these cases a brain is still part of an unconscious body; see Sam Parnia (the current leading researcher) below and my comment:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/670781/There-IS-life-after-DEATH-Scientists-revea...-QUOTE: "However, the study from the University of Southampton shows people still experience awareness for up to three minutes after they had been pronounced dead.”-Note the headline: “There IS life after death.” What a cop-out! There is life after death, and it lasts for three minutes! This study and your own comment only deal with out of body experiences in which the “dead” patient witnesses actions that have taken place in his presence. But you know as well as I do that this is far from being the only type of NDE, and there are some in which patients claim to have entered another world where they commune with other “souls” and, above all, acquire information they could not otherwise have known (e.g. the very recent death of a relative). It is this ability to think and communicate with others (not just passively observe) that supports the theory that mind and body are separate, which is the essence of what is known as substance dualism (property dualism makes mind and body interdependent, and so offers no possibility of life after death). You say you believe that animals have souls, and indeed “that special kind of soul was used by Caesar, our last dog, to bring us Jack, our current dog”. If you believe human souls also survive our physical death, and if you believe they are conscious (not much point in having an unconscious soul, is there? You might as well be dead), how can you also believe that consciousness requires a brain to be “received”, unless you accept my suggestion that the brain is only required so long as we have a body? I'd better stress again, though, that I am only disputing your logic and not trying to promote any sort of belief.