Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how (Introduction)
dhw: It certainly does. And since no-one has ever observed macroevolution, we can only theorize about it. If we disregard the seemingly insoluble problem of how life originated, we are left with the usual choices: 1) random mutations; 2) separate creation by God; 3) dabbling by God; 4) preprogramming by God; 5) an autonomous inventive mechanism (origin unknown, but let's say for now God designed it). The very fact that we can observe microevolution suggests that there is an autonomous mechanism which works towards purposeful change, in this case enabling organisms to adapt to their environment. This is not random, so out goes 1). Options 2) and 3) would keep God mighty busy organizing every single variation, and 4) would require zillions and zillions of programmes to be built into the first cells. These options all seem pretty unlikely to me. That leaves 5). So maybe an autonomous mechanism that can adapt can also invent. > >David: I agree about (1). With (2) God wouldn't need evolution so it is out. (3 & 4) are reasonable and probably within God's power, but then for me it makes the mechanism of evolution a confusing choice for God. Heck, just direct it all the time, which is a sub-choice (3a & 4a). (5) is certainly possible if semi-autonomous as I have described. > > With 'autonomous' you are also trying to have your cake and eating it. The jump from Ediacarens to Cambrian animals is a jump your IM doesn't explain. The planning is too great, and trial and error itty-bittiness is not present in a copious fossil record. To backtrack slightly since I am trying to equate evolution with a plan by God, the planning for first life is an even greater gap than the Ed-Cam jump. Both events show the same handiwork. And your approach can't touch that with a fork!-I am not certain how you two view 2), 3), and 4) as mutually exclusive. If I were going to do 2) I would certainly use 4) to do it. When I was done, I might even go back and use 3) to tweak and fine tune some things, or if necessary, to intervene at key moments to make sure things went the way I wanted them to.
--
What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.
Complete thread:
- Origin of Life: information? -
David Turell,
2012-12-14, 00:45
- Origin of Life: zinc -
David Turell,
2012-12-24, 15:52
- Origin of Life: chemical cycles -
David Turell,
2012-12-27, 14:57
- Origin of Life: flying pigs -
David Turell,
2012-12-27, 16:02
- Origin of Life: Defining life -
David Turell,
2012-12-27, 17:48
- Origin of Life: Very early -
David Turell,
2013-01-04, 15:56
- Origin of Life: fat globules -
David Turell,
2013-01-11, 15:16
- Origin of Life: enzymes -
David Turell,
2013-01-31, 16:02
- Origin of Life: phosphate -
David Turell,
2013-04-05, 15:01
- Origin of Life: salt & amino acids -
David Turell,
2013-04-06, 15:56
- Origin of Life: stromatolites -
David Turell,
2013-05-30, 16:15
- Origin of Life: phosphates -
David Turell,
2013-06-04, 23:22
- Origin of Life: comets - David Turell, 2013-06-06, 16:08
- Origin of Life: borates -
David Turell,
2013-06-11, 15:31
- Origin of Life: HCN and uv light - David Turell, 2013-06-25, 16:02
- Origin of Life: phosphates -
David Turell,
2013-06-04, 23:22
- Origin of Life: stromatolites -
David Turell,
2013-05-30, 16:15
- Origin of Life: salt & amino acids -
David Turell,
2013-04-06, 15:56
- Origin of Life: phosphate -
David Turell,
2013-04-05, 15:01
- Origin of Life: enzymes -
David Turell,
2013-01-31, 16:02
- Origin of Life: fat globules -
David Turell,
2013-01-11, 15:16
- Origin of Life: Very early -
David Turell,
2013-01-04, 15:56
- Origin of Life: Defining life -
David Turell,
2012-12-27, 17:48
- Origin of Life: flying pigs -
David Turell,
2012-12-27, 16:02
- Origin of Life: chemical cycles -
David Turell,
2012-12-27, 14:57
- Origin of Life: software -
David Turell,
2013-04-21, 15:19
- Origin of Life: cells without walls -
David Turell,
2013-07-04, 15:56
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-07-23, 15:35
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-23, 16:19
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-07-23, 18:16
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-27, 11:51
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-07-27, 14:47
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-27, 22:00
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-07-28, 15:37
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-28, 21:37
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-07-29, 15:09
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-30, 11:54
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-07-30, 17:59
- Origin of Life: early land life - David Turell, 2013-07-30, 18:44
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-08-03, 23:55
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-08-04, 20:02
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-08-04, 22:53
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-08-05, 11:25
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-08-07, 14:38
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-08-07, 15:27
- Origin of Life: balance of nature - David Turell, 2013-08-07, 19:23
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-08-08, 12:13
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-08-08, 15:26
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-08-09, 09:06
- Origin of Life: early land life - David Turell, 2013-08-09, 15:32
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-08-09, 15:53
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-08-10, 08:46
- Origin of Life: proof -
David Turell,
2013-08-22, 15:07
- Origin of Life: proof -
dhw,
2013-08-23, 10:55
- Origin of Life: from Mars? -
David Turell,
2013-08-29, 21:04
- Origin of Life: meteorite chemicals -
David Turell,
2013-09-10, 18:35
- Origin of Life: meteorite chemicals -
David Turell,
2013-09-14, 15:58
- Origin of Life: comets? -
David Turell,
2013-09-16, 15:02
- Origin of Life: whole cell -
David Turell,
2013-09-19, 01:01
- Origin of Life: whole cell -
David Turell,
2013-09-21, 16:08
- Origin of Life: whole cell -
dhw,
2013-09-22, 19:07
- Origin of Life: whole cell -
David Turell,
2013-09-22, 21:32
- Origin of Life: it needs solar system -
David Turell,
2013-09-25, 15:05
- Origin of Life: no oxygen -
David Turell,
2013-09-26, 15:00
- Origin of Life: no oxygen -
David Turell,
2013-10-07, 15:27
- Origin of Life: miracle? -
David Turell,
2013-10-13, 15:35
- Origin of Life: miracle? -
dhw,
2013-10-14, 16:09
- Origin of Life: miracle? -
David Turell,
2013-10-14, 17:35
- Origin of Life: miracle? -
David Turell,
2013-10-23, 14:43
- Origin of Life: man made pipedream -
David Turell,
2013-10-24, 15:41
- Origin of Life: man made pipedream -
David Turell,
2013-11-06, 00:24
- Origin of Life: earliest -
David Turell,
2013-11-13, 00:49
- Origin of Life: early minerals -
David Turell,
2013-11-27, 15:27
- Origin of Life: chemical problems -
David Turell,
2013-12-16, 01:06
- Origin of Life: Cold RNA world -
David Turell,
2013-12-23, 16:04
- Origin of Life: RNA world -
David Turell,
2013-12-24, 17:56
- Origin of Life: Extreme difficulties -
David Turell,
2014-01-03, 02:36
- Origin of Life: Extreme odds -
David Turell,
2014-01-03, 05:40
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
David Turell,
2014-03-11, 15:04
- Origin of Life: some current work - David Turell, 2014-03-11, 15:10
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
dhw,
2014-03-11, 20:20
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
David Turell,
2014-03-12, 01:12
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
dhw,
2014-03-13, 11:39
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
David Turell,
2014-03-13, 14:24
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
David Turell,
2014-03-18, 14:06
- Origin of Life: Another dead end -
David Turell,
2014-04-09, 16:18
- Origin of Life: Another dead end -
romansh,
2014-04-10, 03:21
- Origin of Life: Another dead end - David Turell, 2014-04-10, 06:29
- Origin of Life: Another dead end -
romansh,
2014-04-10, 03:21
- Origin of Life: Another dead end -
David Turell,
2014-04-09, 16:18
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
David Turell,
2014-03-18, 14:06
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
David Turell,
2014-03-13, 14:24
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
dhw,
2014-03-13, 11:39
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
David Turell,
2014-03-12, 01:12
- Origin of Life: LUCA -
David Turell,
2014-03-11, 15:04
- Origin of Life: Extreme odds -
David Turell,
2014-01-03, 05:40
- Origin of Life: Extreme difficulties -
David Turell,
2014-01-03, 02:36
- Origin of Life: RNA world -
David Turell,
2013-12-24, 17:56
- Origin of Life: Cold RNA world -
David Turell,
2013-12-23, 16:04
- Origin of Life: chemical problems -
David Turell,
2013-12-16, 01:06
- Origin of Life: early minerals -
David Turell,
2013-11-27, 15:27
- Origin of Life: earliest -
David Turell,
2013-11-13, 00:49
- Origin of Life: man made pipedream -
David Turell,
2013-11-06, 00:24
- Origin of Life: man made pipedream -
David Turell,
2013-10-24, 15:41
- Origin of Life: miracle? -
David Turell,
2013-10-23, 14:43
- Origin of Life: miracle? -
David Turell,
2013-10-14, 17:35
- Origin of Life: miracle? -
dhw,
2013-10-14, 16:09
- Origin of Life: miracle? -
David Turell,
2013-10-13, 15:35
- Origin of Life: how oxygen appeared -
David Turell,
2014-09-05, 16:14
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-15, 15:44
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-16, 03:35
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how - David Turell, 2014-10-16, 06:18
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
dhw,
2014-10-16, 21:28
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-17, 02:21
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-17, 03:26
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-17, 06:04
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-17, 20:46
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-18, 01:19
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-18, 01:52
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-18, 05:05
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-18, 05:54
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how - David Turell, 2014-10-18, 11:45
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-18, 05:54
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-18, 05:05
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-18, 01:52
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-18, 01:19
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-17, 20:46
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
dhw,
2014-10-17, 17:25
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how - David Turell, 2014-10-17, 18:51
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-17, 21:06
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
dhw,
2014-10-18, 18:20
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-18, 21:32
- Origin of Life: Pie in the sky research -
David Turell,
2014-10-30, 14:52
- Origin of Life: Continental drift! -
David Turell,
2014-11-09, 00:18
- Origin of Life: foolishness -
David Turell,
2014-11-24, 14:16
- Origin of Life: new RNAzyme -
David Turell,
2014-12-05, 20:32
- Origin of Life: zapping by laser -
David Turell,
2014-12-09, 00:08
- Origin of Life: oil droplets -
David Turell,
2014-12-09, 15:07
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-15, 15:21
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
Balance_Maintained,
2015-01-15, 16:14
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-15, 19:07
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
Balance_Maintained,
2015-01-16, 15:27
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-16, 18:18
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
Balance_Maintained,
2015-01-17, 14:17
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-17, 14:47
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
Balance_Maintained,
2015-01-17, 15:20
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-17, 21:30
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-27, 17:38
- Origin of Life: odds, chance vs. design - David Turell, 2015-02-06, 01:37
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-27, 17:38
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-17, 21:30
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
Balance_Maintained,
2015-01-17, 15:20
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-17, 14:47
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
Balance_Maintained,
2015-01-17, 14:17
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-16, 18:18
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
Balance_Maintained,
2015-01-16, 15:27
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-15, 19:07
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
Balance_Maintained,
2015-01-15, 16:14
- Origin of Life: early atmosphere -
David Turell,
2015-01-15, 15:21
- Origin of Life: oil droplets -
David Turell,
2014-12-09, 15:07
- Origin of Life: zapping by laser -
David Turell,
2014-12-09, 00:08
- Origin of Life: new RNAzyme -
David Turell,
2014-12-05, 20:32
- Origin of Life: foolishness -
David Turell,
2014-11-24, 14:16
- Origin of Life: Continental drift! -
David Turell,
2014-11-09, 00:18
- Origin of Life: Pie in the sky research -
David Turell,
2014-10-30, 14:52
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-18, 21:32
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
dhw,
2014-10-18, 18:20
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-17, 06:04
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-17, 03:26
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-17, 02:21
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
Balance_Maintained,
2014-10-16, 03:35
- Origin of Life: Organic chemists don't know how -
David Turell,
2014-10-15, 15:44
- Origin of Life: no oxygen -
David Turell,
2013-10-07, 15:27
- Origin of Life: no oxygen -
David Turell,
2013-09-26, 15:00
- Origin of Life: it needs solar system -
David Turell,
2013-09-25, 15:05
- Origin of Life: whole cell -
David Turell,
2013-09-22, 21:32
- Origin of Life: whole cell -
dhw,
2013-09-22, 19:07
- Origin of Life: whole cell -
David Turell,
2013-09-21, 16:08
- Origin of Life: whole cell -
David Turell,
2013-09-19, 01:01
- Origin of Life: comets? -
David Turell,
2013-09-16, 15:02
- Origin of Life: meteorite chemicals -
David Turell,
2013-09-14, 15:58
- Origin of Life: meteorite chemicals -
David Turell,
2013-09-10, 18:35
- Origin of Life: from Mars? -
David Turell,
2013-08-29, 21:04
- Origin of Life: proof -
dhw,
2013-08-23, 10:55
- Origin of Life: proof -
David Turell,
2013-08-22, 15:07
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-08-10, 08:46
- Origin of Life: how did plants get onto land - David Turell, 2015-12-20, 01:40
- Origin of Life: early land life not long after the Cambrian -
David Turell,
2018-04-30, 19:18
- Origin of Life: early land life in algae fossil -
David Turell,
2020-03-27, 00:33
- Origin of Life: early land life in algae fossil -
dhw,
2020-03-27, 12:11
- Origin of Life: early land life in algae fossil -
David Turell,
2020-03-27, 20:58
- Origin of Life: early land life in algae fossil -
dhw,
2020-03-28, 13:17
- Origin of Life: early land life in algae fossil - David Turell, 2020-03-28, 20:15
- Origin of Life: early land life in algae fossil -
dhw,
2020-03-28, 13:17
- Origin of Life: early land life in algae fossil -
David Turell,
2020-03-27, 20:58
- Origin of Life: early land life in algae fossil -
dhw,
2020-03-27, 12:11
- Origin of Life: early land life in algae fossil -
David Turell,
2020-03-27, 00:33
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-08-09, 09:06
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-08-08, 15:26
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-08-07, 15:27
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-08-07, 14:38
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-08-05, 11:25
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-08-04, 22:53
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-08-04, 20:02
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-07-30, 17:59
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-30, 11:54
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-07-29, 15:09
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-28, 21:37
- Origin of Life: early land life -
dhw,
2013-07-28, 15:37
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-27, 22:00
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-07-27, 14:47
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-27, 11:51
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-07-23, 18:16
- Origin of Life: early land life -
Balance_Maintained,
2013-07-23, 16:19
- Origin of Life: early land life -
David Turell,
2013-07-23, 15:35
- Origin of Life: cells without walls -
David Turell,
2013-07-04, 15:56
- Origin of Life: information? -
xeno6696,
2013-12-16, 02:19
- Origin of Life: information? - David Turell, 2013-12-16, 05:30
- Origin of Life: zinc -
David Turell,
2012-12-24, 15:52