Free will again (Humans)

by dhw, Monday, March 19, 2012, 15:05 (4631 days ago) @ romansh

ROMANSH: The point of the link was twofold, 1) if we have no free will then our consciousness is not what it seems. There is no independent me in my brain, and 2) if consciousness does not exist (at least in the sense we perceive it) then it pointless to have consciousness in our definition of free will.-Dhw: I perceive consciousnes [...] as "awareness of one's surroundings and oneself". If that doesn't exist, I don't know how we are managing to conduct this correspondence. I perceive will as "the faculty of conscious and deliberate choice of action" (Collins). These definitions are valid for me, whether our will is free or not. If you disagree that the will (free or not) operates through consciousness, it would be very helpful to have your own definition of the two terms.-ROMANSH: This whole debate gets locked up in a semantic debate. But if we have an unconscious desire (will) are you saying by definition it cannot be free. If so what are your reasons other than convention?
will - for the purposes of this discussion, synonymous with want, desire, wish.
consciousness - what I perceive as awareness.-This discussion concerns free will, and even in your own (disputed) definition, "will" meant "the ability to act or to make choices [independently of the environment or of the universe]" ... not want, desire or wish. That is a totally different use of the word. However, since you ask, I would certainly say that I do not have the freedom to control anything that is unconscious. I can only control it when I become aware of it, and that is when the will (= ability to make choices, as in both our definitions) comes into play. Whether that ability is free or not, I don't know.-ROMANSH: Do I believe consciousness as a separate "soul'. Definitely not. But if it did exist it would have the same problems as my material self. How does it interact with my body, does it conform to the first and second laws of thermodynamics?-If you mean that the problems connected with the concept of "soul" are as insoluble as those connected with material cells producing consciousness in all its manifestations, I agree. For that reason, I neither believe nor disbelieve in dualism or materialism.-ROMANSH: The question Blackmore asks (for me) is there any difference between the awakened/present moment and the "less" conscious moments. The way I read Blackmore her answer is No. I can see why she says this.-Dhw: "Less" conscious (why the inverted commas?) does not mean non-conscious. It confirms my argument that there are different degrees of consciousness. If you can see why there is no difference between lesser and greater degrees, e.g. between a child's awareness of hunger and what to do about it, and an adult's awareness of the different options, effects, influences etc.- not to mention the capacity for self-analysis - do please explain it to me!
 
ROMANSH: The "" were to imply uncertainty. I can no more describe consciousness to you than I can describe the colour blue. We can exchange wavelengths and we can exchange fMRI pictures of conscious minds.-We agree that consciousness is what we perceive as awareness, but I'm afraid I still don't understand why Blackmore sees no difference between degrees of it. You go on to say: "I'm coming to the conclusion that everything is conscious at least to some degree or nothing is conscious." If it's "to some degree", then would you share my subjective belief that a grain of sand seems likely to be less aware of its surroundings and of itself than you and I are? If you do, why is there no difference? And do you honestly believe it's even possible that you are totally unaware (not conscious) of your surroundings and yourself? -ROMANSH: And that zombie remark. That was highly personal and inappropriate. But then again I am shaped to say this beacause of sense of humour amongst other things.-I did say that it was not meant rudely! My aim was purely to express my doubt that you go through the day totally unaware of what you are doing. However, please accept my apologies if this was not clear.