Free will again (Humans)

by BBella , Friday, March 02, 2012, 09:36 (4648 days ago) @ xeno6696

BBella,
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> [Matt] The fact that it is so difficult to obtain exclusive control of your thoughts is truly a frightening idea.
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> [bb] I believe it's not just difficult, it's impossible to control thought. But it is possible to control what you choose to observe/focus on. If you choose to focus on a thought and then follow it where ever it leads, that thought has exclusive control over you (which can be a truly frightening idea!) until you choose to focus on something else. I think of thought like a radio wave and your focus as a receiver. If you choose to focus on something else the thought continues on it's way, into the ether. 
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>[Matt] The frightening part of the experience is exactly what I've highlighted in red. It is so easy to not realize that you're caught in the thought, and every time it happens its as if I'm "waking up" while awake.-Right, I agree. And is the reason so many people "wake up" from being caught in following a thought into tragic situations and then says, I can't believe I did that! What was I thinking? But, at least "you" now are coming to this realization and so can practice becoming aware of thought, breathing, and growing your "free" will to focus on what you choose. 
 
> Then I consider the fact that most people I don't think ever think about the fact that they do this, that most people are completely absorbed in their thoughts most of the time.-That is true, but more people are becoming aware of the value of mediation, more for health reasons at this time (here in the states), but who cares why, it's just good that people are becoming more aware of their need to gain control of their focus. 
 
>[bb] For me, the trick is not to be busy trying to obtain control over the air space of the mindfield (which is where thoughts flow thru and which is impossible), but to practice "choosing" what to focus on or what to observe - like focusing on breathing, family life, school, etc. The more you control your choice of what to focus on, the less thought is attracted to your mindspace. -> [matt] I've seen this two different ways: Thich Nhat Hanh and other contemporaries have an approach similar to what you discuss here, but I've lately been working with a different book that is applying the "when you catch yourself thinking, stop, and go back to breathing." Most Zen is more like what you say--observe only, don't interfere. This technique is much more "hands on" if you will.-Thru my time of learning to gain control of my focus I've also grown a number of my own tools in coping with the procession of thought that has brought the procession down to a minimum...sometimes very long times of silence in the mindfield (true peace for me). Focusing on the lower register below my heart as I breathed when I became aware I was following a thought, was the first way I began to grow my ability to focus away from thought, gaining control of my focus. Eventually I created my own methods that helped me not just avert away from the thought but to meet the thought head on and change it to my own will. -> 
> Perhaps the exercise is designed to make the practitioner realize the difficulty, but its certainly made me acutely aware of how often I derail.-No doubt the exercise definitely helps us to become aware of our lack of control (derailing) over a part of ourselves that most people believe they do have control over. And simultaneously, the exercise gives us knowledge of one thing we do "own" that we can control with our free will...what to focus on.
 
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> [Matt] We're less free than we think, definitely less free than we'd like to be... but I think its something very much like a muscle... you can exercise it and make it stronger.
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> [bb] Maybe the question to ask isnt "if" we have free will but "what" do we have free will of? We are not free to control thought or to control the space of the mindfield. But we do have free will to choose what to focus on.->I agree: But its a severely limited free will when you take into consideration that it takes a great deal of exercise in order to 'master' the ability to be able to choose. -We exercise choosing what to focus on a million times or more a day (just a guesstimation), we're just not aware we are choosing. Meditation helps us slow down the whole process of choice to make better choices ...gaining more of a sense of free will maybe? ->No one has 'unfettered' free will...-In light of our conversation, I'm not sure what you mean by the statement above?