The simplest explanation? (Evolution)

by David Turell , Thursday, October 08, 2020, 17:52 (1505 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: All of the skin and eye purposeful changes are due to migration. Possibilities are chance mutation, epigenetics, or God. I tend to favor God, but the other two are possible. It is an adaptation within species and they are not fully explained either.

dhw: I agree that migration to new conditions would have triggered the changes. I think we both reject chance. You have your God directing the colour changes through “instructions”. “Epigenetics” does not explain what mechanism brings about the changes, and “God” does not explain the mechanism either. Do you favour a 3.8-billion-year-old programme of instructions for eye-colour change, or your God performing eye operations on all the migrants – or is there any other way he could dabble? My alternative is cellular intelligence (perhaps invented by your God).

I agree with you cells act intelligently. The adaptive changes in color of skin and eye are purposeful events. God plays a role either by direct action or by providing a modifying guided mechanism we have not yet found. It is why I follow research reports so carefully.

dhw: You attacked Shapiro’s theory on the grounds that no one had “advanced” it. His theory does not preclude God. So are you really telling us that advances in research are advancing proof that God preprogrammed or dabbled every species directly, as opposed to designing a mechanism (cellular intelligence) which autonomously created new species – i.e. without “guidelines” from him?

DAVID: Yes. The new designs in new species are so complex they require hands-on designer work. Cells don't have the innate intelligence and God won't hand it off to a do-it-yourself system without guidelines.

dhw: It is your assumption that your God wouldn’t do such a thing, and I really don’t know how research can “advance” that theory. Your assumption that cells don’t have the intelligence can hardly be said to have “advanced” the theory that God preprogrammed or dabbled every single life form, econiche and natural wonder in the history of life.

Above my view is explained: "The adaptive changes in color of skin and eye are purposeful events. God plays a role either by direct action or by providing a modifying guided mechanism we have not yet found. It is why I follow research reports so carefully." We don't everything about the genome as yet. Lots are hidden.

dhw: I started this thread with an explanation of life’s history that covered evolution and theodicy. I’m happy that you moved theodicy to another thread, but I’m afraid that only leaves evolution! I don’t know how often you want me to repeat that the version of God I present here is “fully purposeful”, and I have challenged your term “God-lite” as a silly way to dismiss my presentation of a God who knows and gets precisely what he wants. Does my explanation fit the facts of history as we know them or doesn’t it? If it doesn’t, please tell us why.

We both agree God does and gets what He wants. Our versions of how we see His purposes are widely apart. It all comes from how we interpret God's works and underlying reasons. I view your interpretation as very humanizing, as explained, since my version of His personality is widely different.

DAVID: I have given you full reasons why I do not accept your humanizing version of God and your strange view of God not running evolution as you think He should.

dhw: It is no more humanizing to suggest that God did not want control than to suggest that God did want control, and I fail to see why God not wanting a dull Garden of Eden (your expression), and therefore allowing cells to do their own designing, is any stranger than God not wanting a dull Garden of Eden, trying and failing to provide a cure for diseases arising out of the system he designed, and not wanting to do harm but proceeding to design harmful viruses and bacteria and “natural” disasters. (See “Theodicy” – I’m afraid there is no avoiding such overlaps.)

I'm sure God wanted us to have challenges, and seems to have arranged for most that we can handle over time. Evolution is very straight forward from somewhat simple to extremely complex. Cells do not have enough ability to foresee future requirements in design at the currently demonstrated ability. All they do is run their factories and produce. All it all looks very intelligent, because they were designed that way.