Reality (General)

by dhw, Saturday, November 16, 2019, 13:40 (1833 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I refuse to accept that they are more real than the explicable behaviour of the combined particles of the bus! [...] And quantum reality is not a separate reality because it is an incomprehensible part of the material world. It is you who have introduced and believe in a separate reality in the immaterial form of “pure energy”, i.e. God, although we “don’t know what is on the other side of quantum uncertainty”. (David’s bold)

DAVID: Note my bold above. Both the weird particle activity and the bus are obviously real, but the unreal activity of the particles create the bus that can crush you. The particles we are discussing are not represented by the bus. They are the bus but in a different form. They are part of our reality while we don't understand as to how they create our recognizable reality. Your bus is a terrible analogy in view of the difference.

You have bolded and then ignored the argument that I keep disputing! There is no “analogy”. The combined particles and predictable activity of the bus are real. They do not “represent” anything. Why do you say the activity of the individual particles is unreal? It is real, but we don’t understand it. What I do not accept is that the latter activity is MORE REAL than the activity of the combination that makes up the bus. You also continue to ignore the additional and separate reality which you believe exists beyond the wall of quantum uncertainty, namely the “pure energy” you call God.

dhw: […] I jib at the argument that quantum mechanics is the basis of or creates our reality, since the combined particles that make up the bus behave in a totally predictable manner. […]

DAVID: Your bus is dangerous. but does not represent the quantum research that you have trouble with. Note the bold above. When we beat up the materials that makes the bus, what we left with are particle and their behavior we do not understand. Those particles are the raw materials that create the materials that make up the bus. They are the basis of the bus, but in dealing with the bus we are in our reality while the creating particles are part of our reality we do not understand and therefore may not operate in our realm (portion) of reality. I am comfortable compartmentalizing the two regions, as Kastner was. Both regions are just as real as you want, but vastly different. (dhw’s bold)

All perfectly acceptable, and I agree with your conclusion (bolded). My disagreement with Kastner was over the claim that the behaviour of the “raw materials” was MORE real than that of the combined materials. My disagreement with you was over your statement that “quantum mechanics is the basis of reality”. Of course the particles are the “raw materials”, but (a) I don’t see how this means that quantum behaviour (“mechanics”) is MORE REAL than the behaviour (“mechanics”) of their combined form. And (b) I don’t see how anyone can claim that the unpredictable and inexplicable behaviour (“mechanics”) of individual quanta “creates” or is even the basis of the predictable and explicable behaviour (“mechanics”) of combined quanta. All we can agree on, as you so rightly say, is that the two forms of behaviour are real and vastly different, and nobody has yet found an explanatory link.