Immunity: Gamma Delta T cells hunt with precision (Introduction)

by dhw, Friday, November 16, 2018, 11:55 (1987 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: As usual, you switch from cells to molecules. But yes, “my” scientists believe that cells are intelligent even though they do not have brains. And why do you ignore all the attributes of intelligence that I have listed? Do you want me to bold them? Or do you not agree that the ability to learn and to make judgements denotes intelligence? Not comparable to human intelligence, of course, but not even you would limit the possession of intelligence to humans.

DAVID: Not a switch. All cellular activity is down through actions of molecules, which act purposefully, by design. The intelligence is in the design of molecular response, and not due to intelligent action by molecules.

dhw: You know as well as I do that there are tens of thousands of molecules in a single cell, and of course all cellular activity takes place through their actions. The question is what DETERMINES their actions. I do not say that my arms, legs, mouth, hands, fingers are intelligent. Their actions are determined by what I would like to think of as the intelligent “me”. Similarly I (and “my” scientists) propose that the actions of the molecules are determined by the intelligent cell or cell community. Now perhaps you will tell us why you do not regard the ability to learn and to make judgements as an attribute of intelligence.

DAVID: Of course your statement about intelligence is a truism for anyone with a conscious state. But we look at the molecular reactions from the outside and do not see the controls.

If it’s a truism that the ability to learn and make judgements is an attribute of intelligence, then why do you constantly reject the argument that the ability of cells to learn and make judgements means that they are intelligent?

DAVID: Dr. Tour is a famous organic biomolecular scientist, an atheist Jew who accepted Christianity. His view of the cell:
https://www.hbu.edu/news-and-events/2018/11/13/world-renowned-scientist-dr-james-tour/

QUOTE: “'When I look at biological systems, and the amazing functionality of a biological system, even if we just take a cell – just a single cell – and you look at the mechanisms within that cell, it is utterly amazing. How can you look at that and just say, ’Oh well, 3.8 billion years ago, under a rock, it just got started up’ – that’s idiocy. It is amazing to look at that. You don’t even have to look at a human being with all of this. You just look at a single cell – a simple cell and the mechanisms within that cell are huge in complexity,” he said.

And the rest of this brilliant article goes into more detail concerning the wondrous complexity of the cell (he doesn’t mention the molecules, which are simply component parts of the cell) and offers the same highly convincing argument for design as your own. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence versus automaticity!

DAVID: All he can study is the molecules. There is nothing else to study. In the cell as in the genome we do not know how controls are exerted.

So if we do not know, why do you categorically refuse to accept the possibility that the controls are exerted by autonomous intelligence, as championed by “my” scientists.

DAVID: We can only look in from outside. We can reduce the reactions to each step. I frankly doubt we will ever fully understand how the controls work. I view it as possible that all of the carefully orchestrated interactions are all that is needed to have a living cell emerge.

The subject under discussion is not how cells emerge but whether they are intelligent.

DAVID: I will not ever leave behind the concept that what we see is pure design and needed before each gap in the fossil record. Of course I switched from cells to molecules! I think your concept of complexity of the cell is superficial since you have not studied biochemistry. This is not meant to criticize you but to indicate that your theorizing is based on a flimsy basis of understanding of what is involved. I hope the Tour quote indicates that to you.

Once more: we are not discussing the complexity of the cell, which I acknowledge presents the best possible case for design. We are discussing the concept of cellular intelligence! I do not claim to be a biochemist. I owe my concept of cellular intelligence to people who have spent a lifetime studying cells - sources such as Barbara McClintock, Lynn Margulis, Guenter Albrecht-Buehler, James A. Shapiro – and I do not think their conclusions are superficial or based on a flimsy understanding of what is involved.