NDE\'s and skeptics (Identity)

by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Friday, September 04, 2009, 13:13 (5558 days ago) @ dhw

David and Matt are discussing NDEs, and Matt has a theory that our brain operates "based on its own model at all instances. So when those pilots were walking 'behind themselves' this is because their brain's model isn't at a 1:1 correspondence to the world, they're still receiving sensory data but the brain is processing it incorrectly. In an OBE/NDE the theory was carried forward, suggesting that the brain was still receiving inputs and recording information that is then recalled upon awaking." (under Identity, 1 September at 22.55).
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> Matt also suggests that in an NDE "the low blood content of the brain in these instances breaks the barrier that allows our subconscious brain to take over the model, allowing you to have a 'waking dream' that could easily have you floating above yourself."
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> Thanks for the interesting website reference, and thanks also to David for his comprehensive analysis of it.
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> There are all kinds of weird experiences induced by drugs or excess alcohol, and there are illnesses that have the same effect. Whenever something disturbs the "1:1 correspondence", you're going to get weird results, and the experiment with the centrifuge doesn't seem any different to me. But some NDE experiences and some psychic experiences appear to result in the acquisition of knowledge to which the person concerned could not have had access. David has also mentioned this in his latest posts. These are the cases that really interest me, because if there are independent witnesses who can confirm the claims, we have a mystery on our hands. Two correspondents (David and BBella) on this website have had first-hand experience of such psychic phenomena, and my wife witnessed an instance that I've quoted in the "brief guide". (She knows of many more such instances back in her native Nigeria.) You can multiply these examples over and over again. The implication, if even just a small proportion of such cases is confirmed, is that there is an area of our identity or an area of reality that does not conform to any of the known patterns of the physical world. 
> -Amazing. Leave it to me to miss the obvious point and to you to tell me what it is. (Information from an "extra" sense.) -I suspect that there are some cases where this is true. However as you will point out shortly, we don't know enough...-> The simplest "solution" to the mystery is to dismiss all such claims as being fraudulent, delusional, untestable etc. (I notice you still think there's a "worldly" explanation for your trivial déjà vu experiences.) That approach is TOO simplistic for me, because as I've said many times, I'm not prepared to dismiss people's personal experiences out of hand, above all when there is corroboration from third parties. This whole subject ties in with the difficult discussion I've been having with George on identity. David is convinced (as is BBella) that there is something beyond the physical world as we know it, and George is convinced that there isn't. I find it impossible to accept or reject either position because it seems to me that we just don't know enough to form a judgement. In particular, we don't know enough about Nature to draw a line between what might constitute "natural" and what might constitute "supernatural". So-called psychic powers may be lying dormant within all of us.
> -Simplest if you're willing to dance on the experiences of others-which I'm not. It is a prime example of those situations that I complained about before in which -Yeah, I do think that there is an explanation for these things, and I think that it is a solvable mystery. I will add to your brief discussion about drugs and whatnot by reminding that nearly all native cultures use these experiences in a spiritual way. The altered state of the human mind in these instances are what leave me to believe that NDE's and OBE's have their roots in our brains. My dreams that predict inanities, why only when I'm asleep? I'd like to say its a more primitive brain at those hours, but knowing what I know about the brain leads me to say "don't be so sure of that." I know its in MY head and not someone else's, but that's about all I can say. -
> Meanwhile, congratulations on your good news! Your AgnosticWeb Supporters Club will raise a glass to you! Fingers crossed that the application will go through smoothly and you can save yourself a lot of time and hassle.-Hmm... as I think you mentioned living in the UK, would it be a Newcastle Brown? Either way, Cheers!

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\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"