Religion: pros & cons pt1 (Religion)

by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Friday, October 31, 2014, 01:14 (3676 days ago) @ dhw

I have no problem with free will. But your God in his infinite wisdom would have known the choice Adam and Eve would make, so why the outrage? And punishing the whole human race for a crime committed by the first humans is not my idea of justice. -That is illogical. First, it wasn't a human that defected first. Second, the two humans had been around for quite some time without making a mistake. Third, he might not have known it would be the very first generation that messed up. Had it been a member of a subsequent generation, he most likely could have punished one without punishing all. Lastly, allowing us to punish ourselves is not the same as punishing us directly.->DHW: No, I doubt your interpretation of sin and death. If I believed in God, I'd believe he created matter to be in a constant state of change. Permanence would be boring! Life, change and death are part of the endlessly shifting pattern. -No one said anything about a lack of change, only a lack of death.-
>DHW: Imagine if Adam and Eve had not “sinned!” and their descendants had lived for ever, we would now have a planet overloaded with zillions and zillions of humans. But your God knew that wouldn't happen.-Or perhaps we would have been colonizing other planets by now, you know, in that other 99.99999% of the universe that is empty at the moment.-> 
> DHW: So why this constant harping on about how bad we are and undeserving of his love? [...] 
> We're talking about sin and the sacrifice of Christ “for our sakes”, and I'm questioning the emphasis on badness and the need for redemption... If God does exist, I'm sure we'll all genuinely repent our ignorance. Otherwise my own mistakes or thoughtless, selfish actions remain on my conscience, and that's my punishment. Did Christ have to die in order for God to forgive me? -Just like any crime, there must be an equivalent punishment, a repayment. Saying that he should absolve the crimes without them having been repaid is to demand something for nothing. Certainly you don't expect something for nothing? But what can we give god? Everything we have he has given to us, everything that is apart from our freely given love, loyalty, and obedience. Our free will is the only thing that is ours alone to give. If we gave that freely and perfectly, then we wouldn't pay the price of death, but, who can say they have not sinned? Who can say they are perfect? That is why Christ HAD to die.-
>DHW:Eben Alexander was brain dead, and found himself in a world of incredible beauty, with a woman he later discovered was the sister he'd never met. Why should I discount his version of death and accept John's? -Because Alexander was not dead. He was not conscious, and he had no brain activity ,but that is much much different than being dead. Just like we have a hard time defining the moment life starts, we have an equally hard time determining where it ends. We know the difference between life and death, but the thresholds are still very much a mystery.-
>DHW: I doubt if most people's suffering has anything to do with their so-called sinfulness. In fact religion seems to have a greater hold among the suffering poor than among the rich and comfortable. But you're right, the negatives cast doubt on the rosy image.-Surely it does, their own sinfulness and the sinfulness of others. And you are right, it is easier for a poor destitute person to be wise than the rich fool. After all, the rich fool has so much more clouding his vision.-
> It's difficult to say thank you to something that might not even be there, let alone listening. Similarly, I can't condemn something that might not be there.-But even you have a hard time denying his existence. You see it and you can't turn away from it any more than I can. If you could you would be an atheist and not agnostic. You see as well as I do that the other explanations make no sense. The difference, I think, is that I embrace it, and you look for a way around it. Perhaps because some of the bitterness that you've seen or been through.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.