Religion: pros & cons pt1 (Religion)

by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Wednesday, October 29, 2014, 04:56 (3678 days ago) @ dhw

DHW: I hope I haven't offended Casey, as she has not replied and I tend not to hold back in these discussions.-Don't be, apprehensive. I am not so easily offended. As for Casey, we have tied up in a lawsuit and she has had her hands full with that. She is not so thin skinned either. So, no worries.->DHW: (Summarized for word count) 
- Are you then saying that God will condemn everyone he dislikes not only to physical death in this world but to everlasting death, whereas everyone he likes will be resurrected after their physical death and will live for ever on Earth? -Do you share the belief of many JWs that only 144,000 will be “chosen” to do this?-First let me say that I don't expect you to take my word for anything, and God doesn't expect you to follow blindly either. (Romans 3:4; Proverbs 2:1-6; Acts 17:11)-Instead of responding to these in my own words, I would prefer to let the Bible speak for itself. However, let me make a few key points briefly, and then point you to the scriptures to back them up. -


• The Dead are conscious of nothing-(Psa 146:4; Ecc 3:19, 9:5, 10; John 11:11, 13, 14; Isa 26:14;Ps 6:5; Isa 38:18, 19;Ps 13:3;

• Resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous- 1Co 15:12-21; Revelation ch. 7 & 20;Acts 24:15;Ro 8:28-30(no natural righteousness, some 'declared righteous') 

• Judgement- (Heb 9:27; Rev 20:12-15)

• 144,000 to reign as kings and priest- Rev ch 7, Rev ch 20

• The Great Crowd to 'inherit the Earth'- Rev 7:9, 

• Earth is Restored- Isaiah 14:7


-This is just a very, very, very cursory discussion of the topic. Entire books have been written on less. And I am sorry that some are sparse, but I ran out of time. -
 
> "Christians believe that Christ died his agonizing death on the cross in order to redeem them [...] What precisely is the point and process of this “redemption”? If we are good, we will be rewarded; if we are bad, we will be punished. So where does Christ's agony fit in? Couldn't the designer have “redeemed” us without Christ's blood? -This is a wonderful breakdown of that topic.-The short version though, is no, he couldn't. What kind of ruler would Jehovah be if he broke is own laws? Let's just assume for a moment that you believe in God and the existence of other higher life forms, call them what you will. If someone challenged his right to rule, and he killed them, he would appear wrong. If someone called him a liar, and he did not allow the opportunity to prove his word true, he would appear wrong. If someone challenged his creation, and he didn't allow the opportunity for his creation to prove itself, he would appear wrong. If he did not follow his own laws, he would appear to be wrong. His law required an EQUAL sacrifice to what was lost, equal payment. Adam was sinless, until he sinned. So in order for the law of equivalence to be maintained, it required a sinless life to be given up freely in exchange. There was no other way to both maintain the law AND his sovereignty AND redeem us AND remain above reproach himself.-The 'If we are good, we will be rewarded; if we are bad, we will be punished.' Is a bit misleading though. We are all bad. We all sin. We all fall short. And because of that, we all die. -> 
>DHW: .. Why inflict such suffering? Christ and Job were presumably both "perfect and upright", so they should have been saved anyway. What need is there for Christ's blood? Will I obey the commandments simply because Christ died an agonizing death? And could I not have had faith in him anyway without such a death? -Everyone sins. We are all guilty, either knowingly, willingly, or ignorantly and unintentionally. The price for that is death. We all pay it. Christ's blood is what gives us the hope, not guarantee, of forgiveness and a second chance. There will be a resurection of the righteous AND the unrighteous. There will be a period of time where they get to learn the right way to live, and so, having experienced the wrong way and the right, they will be presented with the choice. Those that choose life by remaining faithful, gain life, those that do not, gain death. Fair is fair. (Most of this is outlined in the scriptures listed above. If you can not find references to what I am talking about, let me know and I will either look them up for you or point them out.)-
> 
> The fact is, I am no closer to "redemption" after Christ's death than I was before it. God hurt Job and Christ, then made them feel better, but that won't help the rest of us.-This is where you are part right, part wrong. God did not hurt Job, he allowed him to be tested, just as he did Christ. But notice who did the hurting: Job 1:12 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand.* Only do not lay your hand on the man himself!” So Satan went out from the presence* of Jehovah.+ (Also see Math 4:1-11) -So to answer your question with a question: Who actually was causing harm?-Satan tested Job and Christ, one in pain and misery, the other in pain and death. Both remained faithful, and both were rewarded for their faith. That is the promise given to all of us. (John 17:3, Isa ch. 65, Nu 23:19; Heb 6:13-18)-If I can offer more clarification, or if you would be willing to read some really well researched articles on it, let me know.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.