Knowledge, belief & agnosticism (Agnosticism)
Part 2 of 3 - I think we can all understand that omnipotence cannot sensibly require ability to do what is logically impossible. It would be strange to insist that God should be able to prove that 1+1=3. Whenever we ask a question such as "Why doesn't God do this?" we should therefore remember that we are not in a position to judge what is possible and what is not, even for an almighty God who is the creator of a universe such as this. - The creation of the universe should not be considered as the choosing of pixel colours on a screen, where everything is done independently and the whole is in the direct and immediate control of the creator such that his will may be achieved without constraint. The universe is made such that it should have its own integrity and freedom. It is other than God. Not that it is independent of God, for every moment is a moment of his creation and he is present by his Spirit in all things. But it is a universe ... the word is a good one, meaning literally "turned into one". Like a great work of art, everything is meant to fit and need the other ... and the artist in some sense gives control to the work itself as it is shaped ... an inadequate but useful analogy. It is certainly the case, as we are more and more aware, that everything in the universe is connected with everything else. That is how it is meant to be. At present there are of course great conflicts and disharmonies, but God is still patiently at work. The whole of the Christian faith is about how this is done. And nowhere is this freedom more evident than in human beings ... and nowhere is it more true that our relatedness is the essence of who we are. In this we image God himself, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And sin, in Christian terms, is the denial that our self is found by its being given away, i.e. the claim to be an atomized self-sufficient being. - My point in answer to dhw's question is therefore this: given the universe that God has created, how can we know what is possible for God to do? The moment we start asking for him to intervene, to create faith here, prevent an earthquake there, stop a knife in mid air etc., then very quickly we realise that we are asking for a world unrecognisably different from our own ... not just because of the lack of suffering, but because of the lack of freedom. All that we value most highly would be gone. - Of course, I am not in a position to judge independently what God is logically able to do. It is a matter of faith that the universe is as it is and that God is all loving and almighty. But to insist that God should do this miracle and prevent that disaster and yet we have everything else we enjoy is to claim to know more than we can about what is logically possible. - ...see part 3...
Complete thread:
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-07, 10:19
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-08, 17:17
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - David Turell, 2008-03-08, 19:55
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-10, 08:48
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-10, 15:10
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-10, 17:13
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-12, 12:49
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-14, 12:58
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-14, 15:53
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-15, 10:45
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - George Jelliss, 2008-03-15, 12:15
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-15, 15:50
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
George Jelliss,
2008-03-15, 17:35
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-16, 07:38
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
George Jelliss,
2008-03-16, 17:41
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - dhw, 2008-03-17, 12:32
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
George Jelliss,
2008-03-16, 17:41
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-16, 07:38
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-15, 18:39
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-18, 18:25
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Peter P,
2008-03-19, 12:44
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-19, 15:44
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Peter P,
2008-03-20, 12:51
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-20, 15:07
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-20, 16:35
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-20, 18:03
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-21, 18:20
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-22, 01:15
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-22, 14:55
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-22, 16:27
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-23, 10:51
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - David Turell, 2008-03-23, 15:43
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
whitecraw,
2008-03-23, 21:10
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-24, 01:07
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
whitecraw,
2008-03-24, 22:15
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
George Jelliss,
2008-03-25, 17:17
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - David Turell, 2008-03-26, 00:50
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
whitecraw,
2008-03-26, 16:56
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-27, 00:18
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - whitecraw, 2008-03-27, 19:50
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-27, 00:18
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
George Jelliss,
2008-03-25, 17:17
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
whitecraw,
2008-03-24, 22:15
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - clayto, 2008-03-24, 17:20
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-24, 01:07
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-23, 10:51
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-22, 16:27
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-22, 14:55
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-22, 01:15
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-21, 18:20
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-20, 18:03
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-20, 16:35
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-20, 15:07
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Peter P,
2008-03-20, 12:51
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-19, 15:44
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Peter P,
2008-03-19, 12:44
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-18, 18:25
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
George Jelliss,
2008-03-15, 17:35
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-15, 10:45
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Carl,
2008-07-20, 21:23
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-07-21, 17:29
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Carl,
2008-07-21, 23:50
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - David Turell, 2008-07-22, 05:56
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
George Jelliss,
2008-07-22, 15:49
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-07-22, 16:00
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Carl,
2008-07-22, 20:51
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - David Turell, 2008-07-23, 02:44
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Carl,
2008-07-22, 20:51
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-07-22, 16:00
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Carl,
2008-07-21, 23:50
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Mark,
2008-07-23, 12:15
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-07-24, 10:19
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - David Turell, 2008-07-24, 14:32
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - Carl, 2008-07-24, 20:11
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Mark,
2008-07-25, 17:03
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Mark,
2008-07-25, 17:06
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Mark,
2008-07-25, 17:06
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - David Turell, 2008-07-25, 21:10
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Mark,
2008-07-25, 17:06
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2022-05-04, 23:10
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2022-05-05, 09:19
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - David Turell, 2022-05-05, 15:28
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2022-05-05, 09:19
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
Mark,
2008-07-25, 17:06
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism - George Jelliss, 2008-07-24, 14:19
- The Sermon Part 1 - dhw, 2008-07-25, 09:53
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-25, 10:00
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-07-25, 16:26
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-26, 08:37
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-26, 16:16
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-27, 16:25
- The Sermon Part 2 -
BBella,
2008-07-27, 20:12
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-27, 23:54
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-28, 12:01
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-28, 19:56
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-29, 12:40
- The Sermon Part 2 -
George Jelliss,
2008-07-29, 15:02
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-30, 03:24
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-31, 08:41
- The Sermon Part 2 -
George Jelliss,
2008-07-31, 13:34
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-08-01, 07:56
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-08-01, 19:29
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-08-02, 08:54
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-08-02, 14:33
- The Sermon Part 2 - David Turell, 2008-08-02, 16:37
- The Sermon Part 2 - David Turell, 2008-08-02, 16:43
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-08-02, 14:33
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-08-02, 08:54
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-08-01, 19:29
- The Sermon Part 2 - David Turell, 2008-08-01, 19:45
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-08-02, 16:52
- The Sermon Part 2 -
George Jelliss,
2008-08-02, 18:52
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-08-02, 19:20
- The Sermon Part 2 -
George Jelliss,
2008-08-03, 12:24
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-08-03, 17:43
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-08-04, 00:54
- The Sermon Part 2 - David Turell, 2008-08-04, 18:30
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-08-04, 00:54
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-08-03, 17:43
- The Sermon Part 2 -
George Jelliss,
2008-08-03, 12:24
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-08-02, 19:20
- The Sermon Part 2 -
George Jelliss,
2008-08-02, 18:52
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-08-01, 07:56
- The Sermon Part 2 -
George Jelliss,
2008-07-31, 13:34
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-31, 08:41
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-30, 03:24
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-29, 18:10
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-07-29, 20:12
- The Sermon Part 2 - David Turell, 2008-07-29, 20:56
- The Sermon Part 2 -
BBella,
2008-08-13, 08:38
- The Sermon Part 2 - George Jelliss, 2008-08-13, 14:27
- The Sermon Part 2 - Carl, 2008-08-13, 23:50
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-07-29, 20:12
- The Sermon Part 2 -
George Jelliss,
2008-07-29, 15:02
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-29, 12:40
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-28, 19:56
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-28, 12:01
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-27, 23:54
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-27, 20:39
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-07-27, 21:35
- The Sermon Part 2 - David Turell, 2008-07-27, 23:47
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-07-27, 21:35
- The Sermon Part 2 -
BBella,
2008-07-27, 20:12
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-27, 16:25
- The Sermon Part 2 -
David Turell,
2008-07-26, 16:16
- The Sermon Part 2 -
dhw,
2008-07-26, 08:37
- The Sermon Part 2 -
Carl,
2008-07-25, 16:26
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-07-24, 10:19
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-07-21, 17:29
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
David Turell,
2008-03-14, 15:53
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-14, 12:58
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-12, 12:49
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
dhw,
2008-03-10, 17:13
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-10, 15:10
- Knowledge, belief & agnosticism -
clayto,
2008-03-08, 17:17