Addendum: Atheism and morality (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, October 23, 2010, 11:07 (5123 days ago) @ xeno6696

Matt asks the darnedest questions, and as a non-believer (but not an unbeliever) I'm not the man to answer them. We need a conventional theist like Mark, with whom I had long discussions on morality a year or more ago. Nevertheless, I will foolishly have a go.
 
MATT: Why is man himself--not enough?-Fear of death, fear that evil can triumph, hope that there may be compensation for suffering, the need to depend on a higher authority and the need to believe that the higher authority will be good and kind and loving? All of this could be linked to wish fulfilment, but you never know. There are less dreamy reasons available: man has no answers to any of the fundamental questions concerning our existence, and we hate unsolved mysteries. Our intelligence can't explain our intelligence, so...David will tell you the rest.
 
MATT: I've never understood why doing good and then attributing that clearly human act to God is something that should even be allowable...-I don't think it's attributed to God. I think the basic idea is that the believer wants God to be pleased with him. Most believers think they have free will, and God will judge them according to how they use it. However, it's difficult to imagine someone doing good even though he hates other people. Many religious folk I know really do love their fellow creatures but give thanks to God for everything they have and are able to do.
 
MATT: But back to my original question, "How can submission to God exist at the same [time] in a society of self-improvement?" [...] One is "humble." One takes no credit for anything. Takes no risks; at one time one would have said that it "takes the man out of the man." The other is hard, gives criticism as easily as takes it. Is focused on making his spirit submit to his own will... -The Calvinists were probably the best example of how to solve that problem. They thought God had already decided, and although they had to submit to his will, they looked for signs that they were among the chosen ... which involved material success here on Earth. So they went for it. But I guess we have to define what is meant by "self-improvement". I'd view it on different levels, and will take the easiest example, which is little ole me. With my humanist views, I don't actually see any difference between myself and my religious friends, barring the theology (but I don't know any Muslim fundamentalists). Materially, I've been able to raise a family, enjoy a successful career, and now live very comfortably; intellectually, I remain horribly devoid of knowledge on most subjects but have made some progress down through the years; as a human being ... to me the most important aspect of self-improvement ... I'm at ease with myself, and feel that my relations with others are generally very good: I do my best to be kind and helpful, and live cleanly, and I've led a very happy life so far. I also know how small I am in the great scheme of things, so I hope I'm reasonably "humble". A theist might say all these things about himself, but he'll also thank God for being nice to him, and if in trouble he'll pray. In short, I suspect that "submitting" to God, at least in our western society, in some cases brings comfort, confidence, hope, in other cases fear and moral conflict, but generally does not affect the drive towards self-improvement on any level. Of course, though, submission to God entails interpreting what God wants, and that's a pretty flexible arrangement.