ID explained (Introduction)

by dhw, Sunday, January 31, 2021, 08:31 (1175 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: […] I have listed three possible first causes (your eternal conscious God, an eternal unconscious universe of constantly changing energy and matter, and an eternal, vaguely panpsychist universe), and I find all of them equally unconvincing.

DAVID: Of course you are unconvinced. It is illogical to propose that an unconscious first cause can plan like a conscious first cause.

Agreed.

DAVID: As for constantly changing energy/matter, where did it come from? It is chance in sheep's clothing.

A first cause did not “come from” anywhere. In your own immortal words, “eternal means always”. If by “chance” you mean the infinite and eternal process of matter and energy eventually producing life and consciousness, it is not chance in sheep’s clothing, it is simply chance.

DAVID: And of course panpsychism is 'vague'. So much for your three concocted choices.

But you’ve left one out! You’ve forgotten to turn your justified scepticism on the concept of an unknown, unknowable, eternally conscious mind (in this case, you don’t you ask: “where did it come from?”) with psychokinetic powers that can create and manipulate a whole universe as well as dabble with tiny organisms invisible to the naked eye. I am as unconvinced by your concocted choice as I am by the other two.

DAVID: Cellular intelligence means the cells have knowledge and can plan by thinking.

dhw: It certainly means they have knowledge, but it does not mean they plan in the sense of foreseeing the future. My proposal is that cells RESPOND to requirements.

DAVID: You haven't told us how they know to respond.

dhw: How often do I have to repeat that NOBODY knows how speciation happens, and NOBODY knows the origin of life or intelligence, but your God is one of the three possible first causes mentioned above.

DAVID: Thanks for the sop.

It is not a sop. One of the three “concocted choices” must be closer to the truth than the other two. I am not anti-God, any more than I am anti-chance or anti-panpsychism.

DAVID: The immerging understanding of the extreme complexity of a single operating cell demands a well-planned design by a designer.

dhw: Back you go to the origin! Our disagreement is over Chapter 2 of life, with your claim that your God’s sole purpose was to design H. sapiens, but he directly designed every life form that ever existed, 99% of which had no connection with humans. […]

DAVID: Each branch of the bush is continuous from the origin. So is the branch to humans. Did we just jump time to where we are? Your approach is so illogical. Evolution evolves, doesn't it?

Of course each branch is/was continuous from its origin. But you claim that EVERY branch is/was directly designed as part of your God’s goal of evolving humans, whereas 99% of them had no connection with humans. You have no idea why he would have chosen such a method to fulfil such a purpose, and so you continue to play the silly game of leaving out the bits of your theory that make it illogical.