Bacterial Intelligence? self ID using a virus (General)

by David Turell , Wednesday, April 24, 2019, 19:29 (1822 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I have clearly stated God may be unlimited or limited. History allows both possibilities…

dhw: One day you clearly state that he is in full control, and the next you say he may have limits.

I cannot have exactitude about God. He is concealed. It is possible that God is limited in how He can create. Doesn't seem likely in that He created the universe with a Big Bang from what I think was pure energy, started life which is very complex on a very special planet. It simply may be that life is so complex, advances must be evolved, but that still puts God completely in charge.

dhw: The concept of autonomous cellular intelligence allows for God’s powers to be unlimited, but for him to have made the choice to give up control – just as you believe he has done by giving humans free will. In both cases, he would have established a system based on the principle of “Let’s see what happens…” – though always allowing himself the option of dabbling.

DAVID: We are debating a totally purposeful God, my view, vs. a tentative God which I think is your view. Of course, I've admitted God may have limits, but my position is I strongly doubt it. Since you live in doubt, you will posit all sorts of possibilities about God. I am sure will have some areas of agreement, but more than likely it will be mostly disagreements.

dhw: A “totally purposeful God” is not what we are debating at all. On this thread the subject is cellular intelligence and its relevance to your God’s use of evolution to achieve his purpose(s). In my proposal there is “total” purpose and nothing tentative, the purpose being to create a process that will provide the ever changing spectacle of life which constitutes its history (but always allowing for dabbles).

We are certainly discussing a 'totally purposeful God'. An 'ever changing spectacle' is humanizing God in the extreme. A purposeful God does not need spectacle. In my view, He fully knows what He wants as a goal, and accomplishes it.

dhw: I am suggesting that your vehement opposition to the concept of cellular intelligence – despite your setting the odds at 50/50 – is that it represents a major threat to your strong belief that your always-in-control God’s one and only purpose was to produce H. sapiens, linked to your proposal (but not belief) that for no apparent reason – you have “no idea” why he chose this method – he specially designed every life form in life’s history for the purpose of getting them to eat or not eat one another until he specially designed the only thing he wanted to design.

Again your irrational refrain. I fully believe God chose to evolve humans. His choice of method is His choice, and clearly is supported by the historical record. We evolved. I cannot know His reasons for the choice, which you constantly demand I reveal. Yes, I have 'strong beliefs', but, surprise, that is what faith involves. As for the bolded comment, it is totally off the mark as it implies God diddled aimless around until He finally plugged in the goal, humans. We are certainly discussing purpose and God's purpose. A purposeful God creates one event after another as described above. No dawdling around. But you want 'purpose' as in a weak view of God looking for spectacles He can enjoy! He saw the Big Bang, Earth appear and evolve. As a human I would have loved to see those events but it is because I am human. God is not. He was creating sequentially, with purpose and with a final goal in mind. But every step had purpose.