Bacterial Intelligence? self ID using a virus (General)

by David Turell , Thursday, April 18, 2019, 19:06 (2044 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Surprise, surprise, when material beings communicate, they use material means. How does this come to indicate that they may well be entirely automatic (see below)?

DAVID: Molecular reactions between ligands and sensors are molecular reactions, nothing more.

dhw: Now you are picking on the molecular reactions involved in perception and again totally ignoring the intelligence required to process information and form whatever messages are to be communicated.

Not ignoring, but noting you conveniently ignore there are always two possibilities: actual intelligence or simply following intelligent instructions carried in the cells.

DAVID: This is a lucky outcome. The helpful virus attacks the bacteria. That is what it is built to do. It doesn't have a good deed in mind. Note the bolds: it is interesting that bacteria are always hungry and hunt in groups. And note how they communicate, by sending chemical signals. This may well be entirely automatic.

dhw: Why is it down to luck? (I thought anyway that you believed it was down to your God’s programming 3.8 billion years ago.) It is indeed interesting that they cooperate, communicate, distinguish one life form from another according to whether these are goodies or baddies. Sounds to me more like intelligence than luck or non-thinking obedience to instructions.

DAVID: Your statement is fuzzy logic. I do not think in a rigid fashion as you imply. God's control or His programs are not involved. In this case a virus infects a bacteria, which is its role in life. You imply the bacteria invited the virus in. Not so. The virus attacks the bacteria which cannot kill it, It just happens to help the bacteria in self-identification. What is not luck? No intelligence involved. Many bacteriophages (viruses) do kill bacteria.

dhw: I did not imply any such thing! The article focuses on the ability of bacteria to identify kin and non-kin, to form social groups, to communicate with one another, and to use whatever favourable material comes their way. The only luck involved is the arrival of viruses that they can use. You even asked me to note that they are always hungry, hunt in groups, and communicate (as we all do) by using material signals. I see the whole picture you asked me to see - hungry bacteria using whatever means they can to satisfy their hunger. In the past you have had your God preprogramming or dabbling all their actions, but do please tell us your new explanation for all the above.

I have explained it above: "In this case a virus infects a bacteria, which is its role in life. You imply the bacteria invited the virus in. Not so. The virus attacks the bacteria which cannot kill it, It just happens to help the bacteria in self-identification. What is not luck? No intelligence involved. Many bacteriophages (viruses) do kill bacteria." You imply the bacteria happily gobbled up the 'useful' virus. The virus is the natural enemy of bacteria. In this case neither foe could kill the other, thus a lucky outcome for the bacteria which could then use the virus in a novel way. Read about them:

https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBacter...