The Human Animal (Humans)

by xeno6696 , Sonoran Desert, Thursday, August 13, 2009, 21:21 (5579 days ago) @ David Turell

When you couple this with Libet's experiments that show that our brains seem to make decisions before we're consciously aware of making them, the case for a penultimate free will isn't on as firm of a ground as one would like. (Google Benjamin Libet's experiments.) His experiments were in the context of movement, but the questions it raises about free will make the certainty of free will much less settled, in my mind. 
> 
> I'm aware of his studies. Our proprioceptive sense of body movement and position will give us understanding of our movements, but everything takes time. I decide to move instantaneously before the movement itself. Granted our axons carry the electric impulse like an electric wire. Now the impusles coming back tell me I have moved the arm, even if I am not looking at it.I consciously moved that arm even if there are very tiny time lags. I play the piano and fingers move as I read notes. I did this as a kid. I read notes and the fingers played. As far as I am concerned it is all free will. Conscious thought and recognition of movement take time. I think you are misinterpreting his work.
> And you say it yourself: 'our brains seem to make decisions before we are consciously aware'. Electricity is at the speed of light. - But that's what Libet's experiments show. To me, free will would have to be *instantaneous.* We perceive it as instant, but it isn't. A delay of 1.0s for the distances the electrical pulse has to travel is akin to being able to freeze light in place. So either thought doesn't actually move at light speed, or there's processing going on that we're unaware of. These unconscious properties are obviously *part of* free will or they wouldn't be invoked in the first place. Free will requires consciousness, if part of free will is unconscious than we only have qualified free will and not penultimate free will. Especially if Jung was right and a great deal of our drives are hidden in the unconscious mind, we may well have processes that push us along and we simply *think* its free will. Those unbidden thoughts to me are a clue of deeper processes that cloud the water and make the idea of "free will" much less black and white and more gray. You can concentrate all you want, but unless you've spent alot of time noticing that concentration is never perfect you'll miss my point. - Here's an intro Buddhist exercise:
Take a moment, sit in a comfortable position, sit perfectly still, and let go. When you notice yourself thinking, mentally say "that's a thought." Don't try to fight it, just let it move to completion, if it helps think of how a mountain works. Clouds (thoughts) pass by but the mountain does nothing, just sits there. - When you do this you should notice incredibly quickly at how much your brain babbles... and none of it is coming from a conscious thought. When I do it I'll suddenly catch my eyes moving towards the window. That's a thought. Then I notice my brain humming a tune. That's a thought. My brain wanders to my Mexico Vacation in 2 days. That's a thought. - How is this free will? I'm not asking any of these thoughts to surface, yet they are. This is a very strong challenge to the notion that we're *completely* capable of free will.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"