More Denton: Reply to Tony (Introduction)

by dhw, Wednesday, July 29, 2015, 21:32 (3405 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

dhw: 1.Do you accept David's hypotheses that God either preprogrammed all the products of these activities 3.8 billion years ago, or guided each one individually? -TONY: I believe that there was, and had to be, pre-programming in place prior to any given creature existing. Failure to have said pre-programming would lead to immediate death, even if it was somehow miraculously conceived, or spontaneously created.-OK, but my question was whether you thought every innovation, variation, lifestyle etc. was preprogrammed by God from the very beginning (or individually “guided” by him). As David believes in common descent, this entails continuity (the programmes have to be passed on) and not the separate creation you believe in. But perhaps you would prefer not to give an opinion on David's hypothesis.
 
dhw: 2. Do you believe in common descent from each “prototype” species? 
TONY: This question is ambiguous. Please clarify. If you have a prototype species you don't actually need common decent because no speciation actually occurs. What you have are variations within a single species that tend to breed true. Given the predisposition towards segregation by similarity, the natural course of events would lead to breeds that are fairly homogeneous.-In this context, by common descent I mean that a group of organisms share a common ancestor. If you believe that the tabby, tiger, cheetah and lion were all descended from the first (prototype) cat, you have common descent. Of course in our discussion I am linking this to the next question: -dhw: 3. Since classifications are not a “sound basis for rational judgement”, and we may not know the “prototype”, how can we know that what we now consider to be separate species have not branched off earlier from common ancestors?
TONY: By one of the earliest definitions of species which puts the genetic inability (as opposed to geographic or size barrier) to interbreed as the defining, separating factor. That would be a clear indication of species. -Again that is not what I am asking. My point is that we do not know what was the prototype for each species, and there is enormous controversy for instance over how to classify the early hominids (were they more ape than human?). If, as you rightly point out, our classifications “are not a sound basis for rational judgement”, again how do we know that what we now define as species (e.g. humans) did not branch off from common ancestors (e.g. apes)?-TONY: ...the morphological changes need to change between herbivore and carnivore are too great, and no such change has ever been observed. 
Dhw: The argument that no changes have been observed applies to all hypotheses. The changes are apparently not too great for protocat to turn itself into tabby or lion. How do you know God would not/could not design a mechanism enabling existing organisms also to adapt their bodies to munch meat instead of marigolds (especially if the latter are in short supply)? 
TONY: If he wanted to, I am certain he could, I am suggesting that he didn't.-Fair enough. So may I ask what procedure you suggest he did use - or would you prefer to leave it as a “don't know”?-DHW: The Cambrian lasted 5-10 million years, which allows for quite a few generations (I calculated the number in an earlier post.) We must assume that the necessary changes did take place in the allotted time. These innovations don't happen now, so back we go to the different hypotheses, not one of which fits in with anything we know or perhaps even can know. But mine does have a simple logic, if only I could get it across to you...-TONY: I see no reason to say that "Speciation Happened" nor do I see that "We must assume that the necessary changes did take place in the alloTted time" specifically because "these innovations don't happen now".-This is a tricky conversation, as my comment was directed towards David, who believes in common descent, as I do. By “speciation” I only meant that the different species appeared, and as there are no known precursors, David and I must assume that the changes to existing organisms took place during the 5-10 million years. The fact that such innovations don't happen now (and therefore cannot be observed) leaves us no choice other than to hypothesize about how the changes took place. I presume that you, on the other hand, assume there were no changes at all because God created all the new species separately. It is this theory that I was starting to probe with my earlier questions.