LUCA latest: Shapiro redux (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, July 22, 2023, 12:43 (490 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: In order to reduce God's possible functions, you hand it over to the cells He created.

dhw: You really are desperate to find some way of discrediting Shapiro’s theory, but this plumbs the depths. Why would I want to reduce your God’s possible functions? Your own theories are so absurd that even you can’t understand them. I am looking for explanations that make sense of evolution’s history, always allowing for your God as the possible designer. Shapiro’s theory provides a perfectly logical explanation of the history.
And:

dhw: Cells process information, communicate, take decisions etc., all of which you agree appear to indicate intelligence. Maybe they DO indicate intelligence.

DAVID: Only if the cells we analyze in current living forms showed evidence of speciated ability. They don't!!!
And:
DAVID: intelligent design with no evidence of speciating ability.
And:
All we see are epigenetic editing, nothing close to speciation. Nothing 'major' in current research.

It’s a theory! Nobody knows how speciation happens! But if we know that “minor” autonomous editing does occur, why should we discount the possibility that “major” autonomous editing could also have occurred when conditions required it? Meanwhile, what evidence has been found to prove the theoretical existence of a divine, 3.8-billion-year old programme for every innovation, lifestyle, strategy, natural wonder in the history of evolution. What evidence is there for an unknown, sourceless mind named God theoretically intervening to specially design every innovation etc. in the history of evolution (99% of which are/were irrelevant to what you say was his one and only purpose)?

DAVID: The intense requirements for design of complex biochemical reactions requires a mind in action, one simple biochemical cells cannot create.

dhw: Biochemical cells are not simple, and their immense complexity is a potent argument for your designer God. Furthermore, you agree that their actions appear to be intelligent, but you simply refuse to contemplate the possibility that your God might actually have endowed them with intelligence. Instead you cling to the alternative theories I have summarized above, and you try to belittle Shapiro because he did not personally do all the research that underlies his theory.

DAVID: I seriously belittle your blown-up interpretation of Shapiro’s theory.

dhw: I have repeated the exact wording of his theory as quoted by you in your book The Atheist Delusion. Please stop pretending that I have “blown it up”.

DAVID: I faithfully presented Shapiro as an historical figure in the debate.

You faithfully quoted his exact summary of his theory, e.g. “evolutionary novelty arises from the production of new cell and multicellular structures as a result of cellular self-modification and cell fusions.” Stop pretending that I have “blown it up”.

DAVID: I introduced you to Shapiro whose work I ADMIRE. But it was limited to bacteria.

dhw: It was not limited to bacteria. Studying other people’s research is also “work”, and you have agreed that “Shapiro knew of all the other research”.

DAVID: The new facts Shapiro's research produced were all about bacteria, nothing more.

You have agreed that he would have researched work on other organisms before reaching his general conclusions. Stop pretending that his theory is only based on bacteria.