LUCA latest: Shapiro redux (Introduction)

by dhw, Wednesday, July 19, 2023, 12:23 (491 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Only God's designing mind is capable of the biochemical complexities of living forms.

dhw: We are not talking about the biochemical complexities, but about the ability to process information, to communicate, to take decisions etc. – all the hallmarks of autonomous intelligence.

DAVID: BUT, it is exactly the biochemical complexities that process the information.

dhw: There speaks a self-professed dualist. But even if you believe that all mental processes stem from biochemical processes, you are still stuck with the fact that living cells process information, communicate, take decisions, solve problems etc., and these activities are hallmarks of autonomous intelligence. If that is true of us humans, whether designed by God or not, and whether biochemical or not, then why can’t it be true of other life forms, including individual cells?

DAVID: The automaticity of cells is clearly shown in everyday research. Yes, they look intelligent, but they follow very intelligent instructions from God, the designer.

Of course cells behave automatically most of the time. If they didn’t, species would not remain species! But every innovation and every response to new threats will require a change in what has previously been automatic! See below on the subject of “editing”.

DAVID: Shapiro as a professional scientist cannot bring God into the picture.

dhw: And there is no reason why he should. He is dealing with evolution, which is Chapter Two in the history of life, not Chapter One, which is the origin of life. Theists and atheists can both use his theory – just as they can both use Darwin’s theory.

DAVID: Whoa! What Shapiro studied was bacteria, which represent the unevolved start of life. They cannot represent the future.

dhw: How many more times? You have agreed that Shapiro would have known about other life forms, and his conclusions are not based solely on bacterial behaviour, and the theory of cellular intelligence has been embraced by other experts in the field. And this is a complete digression from the subject, which was Moran’s objections.

DAVID: Of course Shapiro knew all of the other research. His theory is based on his bacterial works and is an extrapolation into a theory that explains natural evolution asking, if bacteria can edit DNA why can't that explain evolution. But editing elsewhere is not present. End of theory.

Of course editing is present elsewhere! How can evolution have proceeded without it? But you insist that only your God could have preprogrammed the editing 3.8 billion years ago, or popped in over and over and over and over again to do a dabble (even though 99% of his dabbles had no connection with the only dabbles he actually wanted to perform). And you find this absurd theory more convincing than the proposal that he might have designed a mechanism whereby the cells themselves did/do their own editing, or ultimately failed/fail to edit themselves successfully – hence the 99% extinction rate which you prefer to attribute to your God’s messy, cumbersome and inefficient method of design.