The Human Animal (Animals)

by dhw, Saturday, June 12, 2010, 10:50 (5277 days ago) @ xeno6696

Matt has argued that the group is the source of "evil": he says we have "social instincts that are finely honed and crafted; and it is THIS instinct that leads man to do evil." I responded that evil such as murder, rape, child abuse etc. is the result of our anti-social, egotistic instincts.-MATT: Try this thought: Why did the holocaust happen? Was it because a lot of people individually hated the Jews, or were some just following orders? The truth on this is that the greater majority were just following orders. In a way--you're right--they were acting in their own self-interest, but it was out of fear for being separated from the German super-organism NOT a reaction from "antisocial, egotistic instincts." It was the social nature itself that provided the sole impetus for the average German citizen to do the unthinkable. The willingness for some people to do things that they know is wrong comes from a social/tribal instinct--not despite it.-We are clearly talking about two different kinds of evil, the individual and the collective. Your murderer, rapist, child abuser acts out of anti-social, egotistic instincts. I agree that the actions of individuals in the context of a brutal dictatorship are in a different category, though even in this context I'm not convinced that the group instinct is the source. So let me try out an alternative thesis on you. Obviously, our social instincts lead us to form groups, and without groups you can't have collective evil. You can't have bottled water without a bottle, but that doesn't make the bottle the source of the water. In all dictatorships, policies are decided by individuals, and they will always find other individuals to implement them. Those who do so willingly are guilty of the same antisocial, egotistic instincts as the "private" murderers, rapists etc. But once the machinery of oppression is in place (a strong military/police force/secret service to crush opposition), it requires great courage to stand against it. We don't know what the mythical "average German citizen" thought at the time, any more than we know how we ourselves would have acted in such a society, but I'm inclined to agree with you that the greater majority were "just following orders". The penalty for not following orders under the Nazi regime was not just being "separated from the German super-organism", but being separated from life and limb. In my view, the source of the evil is not those who obey orders, but those who give them. We know precisely what Hitler and his henchmen thought, and how they imposed their ideas, just as every brutal leader throughout history has imposed his ideas. And so I would suggest that the source of such unspeakable atrocities is not the group instinct, which only provides the enabling framework; the picture within that frame ... whether good or bad ... is still provided by the instincts of individuals. We have to be governed, and collective good or evil depends on the nature and, all-importantly, the power of the individuals who govern us.