Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God (Introduction)

by dhw, Monday, May 01, 2017, 09:11 (2763 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

dhw: To blame atheism for the slaughter of the Jews seems to me as destructive a distortion as to blame theism for the jihad. You were defending Olasky’s article, and in my view such distortions can only foster prejudice and conflict. I don’t know what you are referring to when you accuse me of “prejudice about religion”.
DAVID: It is my distinct impression that you are highly prejudiced against religion in general.

I join you in not recognizing the authority of the bible and in not following any organized religion, but I have the utmost respect for people with religious beliefs, provided those beliefs are not harmful. And so if by “religion” you mean dogma and ritual, I agree that like yourself I am anti (call us both prejudiced if you like). If you meant belief in a god or gods, I am an agnostic, which means I have not made a decision either way. I don’t see how “I can’t decide” constitutes prejudice. I did not set up this website to attack or defend belief in God, but to try to gain insights into questions I am unable to answer. However, if I am offered insights that do not make sense to me, I will always say so and try to explain why. I can't see how this constitutes prejudice either.

TONY: It is my impression that he likes to tweak our beards. When I look at the world, particularly the world of Atheist, I see a certain tendency towards fatalism. Particularly in the hardline materialist versions that both deny free will and subscribe to the at death there is nothing mentality. YOLO, right?
Yes, there are variants on many religions that have the same impact, which is why we see the same results. The line of reasoning that believes in predestination, or a divine will that guides everything tiny detail of what happens in all of creation is every bit as toxic as Atheism, and for exactly the same reason!

I agree that any beliefs, religious or non-religious, which lead to lack of responsibility are toxic. But I don’t know why YOLO should be toxic, unless once again it leads to harmful behaviour. As I keep saying, it’s perfectly possible to be happy and kind to others without believing in an afterlife.

TONY: The bible declares our free will as a gift from God. It shows that we are accountable both to our fellow humans and to our creator for our actions.

Humanism leaves out God/the Creator.

TONY: It shows that our lives are a precious gift and that recklessly endangering them is not only against our best interest but disrespectful and ungrateful.

I don’t know of any atheist who would disagree.

TONY: [...] man will dominate man to his injury, that the love of money is the root of much wickedness.

Agreed.

TONY: Yes, it teaches us that the perfect standard is unattainable, but also that there is compassion and forgiveness for our mistakes provided we not only feel remorse but do our best to make amends and correct ourselves, which also sets the stage for how we should treat others, by pointing out that it is impossible to meet everyone's expectations so we should forgive each other where they fall short.

I don’t think any humanist would disagree with the argument that we should feel remorse for our mistakes and try to make amends. I’m not sure that I would be capable of forgiving someone who raped or murdered my child – but we are all different.

TONY: So yes, some Atheists are good people, and some theists are bad people. That is a fair statement. However, in my humble opinion, Atheism can never measure up to the bible. Not only does it lack the explanatory power, but it also lacks the humility.

Anyone who claims to know the truth – whether theistic or atheistic – lacks intellectual humility. Atheism doesn’t seek to explain anything. It is simply a denial that God exists. All of us, however – theists, atheists and agnostics alike – look for explanations, and may find some more convincing than others, but your quote from Ecclesiastes 8:17 sums it all up beautifully:

"No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it."

Neither the bible nor the wise people who give us their personal interpretations of the bible, nor the scientists, nor the philosophers - theistic and atheistic - with their unproven and probably unprovable theories can comprehend what goes on, even to the extent that nobody knows if there is any meaning beyond the meaning we as individuals give it. Some of the many authors of the bible were indeed extremely wise, and as an agnostic I can only applaud this unknown author’s insight.