Fine tuning specifics: Reasons for God (Introduction)

by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Thursday, April 27, 2017, 23:27 (2767 days ago) @ dhw

DHW: Only if you define “miracle” as an act of God. It can also be defined as “any amazing or wonderful event” (Encarta).

And of course you ignore the primary definition of miracle that says " event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency". Sure. And I can accept evolution if it just means to change over time. Of course, we both know that miracles are not considered natural events and evolution means more than simply changing, but we can pretend otherwise when it makes our point, right?

TONY: That is not to say that Atheist can not be accountable, but honestly, what reason do they have to be? They are just 'unimportant, momentary, minuscule specks in a vast indifferent Universe'. If they are right, their actions, ours, or anyone's make no difference whatsoever.[/i]

My apologies, but I had to restructure your response here to be able to answer your points in logical order.

DHW: You must have had some truly terrible encounters with atheists to have formed such a jaundiced vision. ... As for responsibility and accountability, do you really think that belief in God is the only possible motive for love of one’s fellow creatures?...

I did NOT say that they COULD NOT be responsible, nor that they were only capable of destruction. Do not twist my words, please.

I simply asked what reason they have to hold themselves responsible or accountable if all of this is just a happy accident in an otherwise cold and indifferent universe. And I am not the only one that sees the problem with this:

http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=46

In a naturalistic world view, whether Agnostic or Atheistic, humanity is truly neither more nor less than any other animal. Note, I am not talking about any individuals views here, but the philosophy of naturalism as a whole. It is all just one happy accident of nature and your fellow man is nothing more than another animal. Pain, pleasure, joy, sadness, none of these things are real. They are simply the firing of synapses in your brain that illicit a biochemical response your brain interprets a different way.

Because of that, there is no logical grounds for any form of morality except that which produces pleasurable biochemical responses for the individual. We know that different people find 'pleasure' in different things, including pulling the wings off bugs or hurting their fellow man. By naturalistic philosophy, they are neither more nor less right than someone that wishes to protect all life. Further, because naturalism reduces, and in some cases seeks to eliminate free will, if they hold some sense of accountability or responsibility for their actions it is logically inconsistent. After all, if you have no free will, then by definition you are NOT responsible for your actions.

DHW:And philosophically can you not see that the sheer temporality of our lives renders every moment precious? “Meaningless” and “valueless”? On the contrary, it endows the present with unique meaning and value, and if we are to make the most of it, what better way can there be than seeking happiness for ourselves and others? What makes you think atheists only enjoy destruction?..

The temporality actually makes them less meaningful in most cases, not more so. While it may make our PERSONAL life more meaningful to us as individuals, it can just as easily be used to cheapen life. I mean, why NOT drop a bomb that will kill millions? After all, they were all going to die soon anyway. I know you have some experience with Africa. Surely you have seen how cheap life became there to so many. If not, then perhaps Somalia? Bosnia? What about the half a million people in Syria? Or the nearly half a million in Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan? Still not ringing any alarm bells? And before you respond, note that I am not blaming any of the deaths in those places purely on Atheism, but merely pointing out how easy it is for life to become cheap and dispensable. How easy it is for people to not see the people as anything other than numbers. When you hear a news report from those places, do you stop to think of every individual human that was murdered, or are they just a faceless number? What human could bear up under the weight of that if they truly felt any accountability or responsibility?

Perhaps you may think my response and view about these events odd, but let me remind you that I was a soldier that served in war time. I had to see their faces. They can not ever be faceless to me again. I can't even watch the news anymore without getting sick.

DHW:You know as well as I do that there are forms of Buddhism that dispense entirely with gods and hold all life to be sacred, but you don’t even have to be a Buddhist to practice love, empathy, sympathy, charity, honesty, fellowship etc.

As for your reference to Buddhism; Buddhist believe in a cycle reincarnation and karma known as Samsara, which provides the 'supernatural' consequences for their actions. Despite their not believing in a God, they still have an externally imposed morality.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.