Emergence (Evolution)

by David Turell , Wednesday, October 09, 2013, 20:05 (4061 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: There are two aspects of this statement that I'd very much like to discuss with you. Firstly, "emergence" is another way of saying that the sum is greater than its parts. The parts in this case are billions of cells interacting, cooperating, passing messages to one another.-Emergence is certainly defined this way. Life is an emergent quality.-> dhw: We still have no idea how this results in consciousness, let alone self-awareness (which must be distinguished from consciousness),-Here I disagree. Consciousness involves self-awareness at the human level. Animals are conscious but generally not self-aware and therfore do not have the type of consciousness we have.-> dhw: but if each part contributes to the whole, what does it contribute? Is it only the whole that is "conscious", while all the parts are automatons? Or is it possible that the parts themselves have a degree of consciousness, and the unification of these billions of "degrees" creates a superconsciousness?-We just don't know, but it obviously takes a brain of human magnitude to create our level ofconsciousness. Now, is it a creation or does it act like a radio receiver? i've read all these opinions and I am currently reading Sam Parnia's book on NDE's and I just entering his discussion of that point.
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> dhw: My second point concerns an issue arising out of your post under "pre-planned brains": is it the cells that develop the abilities, or is it the abilities that develop the cells? Is it biochemistry that produces intelligence, or is intelligence a form of energy that drives the biochemistry? When "I" decide to perform an action, is this "I" an identity that emerges from a mass of chemicals, or is it a separate form of energy that interacts with the chemicals (sometimes controlling them, sometimes being controlled by them)?-Good questions. Your brain has plasticity, grows neurons and connections as you learn. It also modulates synapses so connections vary. I believe it is all automatic. Your 'self' identity is another philosophic and scientific issue. Sam Parnia talks about the history of the discussions in this area but I've yet to see an answer. Perhaps in the next 100 pages, but I doubt it. 
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> dhw: This is the point where I have difficulty following your thinking. You believe in a form of intelligence that is entirely independent of biochemistry (your God), and you take with the utmost seriousness psychic experiences such as NDEs, which not only suggest a similar independent form of energy, but may even suggest an afterlife in which the entire identity of a person survives independently of his materials. And yet you believe that consciousness, intellect, intelligence emerge from biochemistry. We have discussed this before, but the two concepts of intelligence still seem to me to be contradictory.-Not contradictory. I have no idea how consciousness emerges. I believe in a universal consciousness (GOD); I believe in species consciousness; and I believe in an afterlife in which my consciousness joins the universal consciousness. Remember the brain may be acting as a radio receiver to facilitate all of this. And biochemistry is at the base. Both consciousnes and life are emergent properties from the complexities of biochemistry.