Natural Teleology: More Thomas Nagel (The limitations of science)

by dhw, Thursday, February 07, 2013, 17:01 (4308 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I have the firm belief that you cannot offer intelligence as a first cause and it not be God. As I understand panpsychism it is intelligence in everything in the universe. That is really panentheism. God is everywhere, for example, as in your consciousness, which is part of Him, whether you want to accept Him or not.-I realize that you have a firm belief, but in this discussion it's vital that we clarify our terms. I tried to make it clear that by "intelligence" I do NOT mean the self-awareness which is so essential to your concept of God. ("Intelligence" may not be the right word, which is why I usually put it in inverted commas, but there IS no right word.) Panpsychism has many variants, and I'm putting my own slant on it, but this slant is in keeping with the description I quoted from the Oxford Companion to Philosophy, which does NOT entail self-awareness or even a mind. It suggests that there are "varying degrees in which things have inner subjective or quasi-conscious aspects, some very unlike what we experience as consciousness." This concept is very different from your panentheism, and ties in neatly with the latest article about Nagel which you have alerted us to, and which I will discuss in a separate post.-Dhw: Our difficulties don't arise from arguments AGAINST anything. The problem is arguments FOR (chance, various forms of God, various forms of panpsychism). These are always a matter of faith, and I do not find one faith more reasonable than another.-DAVID: God has various forms in various religions, usually anthropomorphic. And I feel worthless. -I was genuinely shocked to read this, and cannot for the life of me understand why you should feel worthless. If that is what belief in God makes you feel, come and join me on my fence, where you will be treated with all the affection and respect you deserve!-Dhw: Since you believe that your version of God planned our universe with the express purpose of creating us, I wonder if you have any thoughts on why [God] might have created these gulping, spitting black holes all over the place, with matter appearing and disappearing all the time. It all seems rather higgledy-piggledy to me.-DAVID: There is a view by some scientists and theologians that the specific laws of nature by which the universe is evolving are constricted to allow only this sort of evolution. For example, the formation of galaxies always requires a black hole at the center. Galaxies are present due to quantum fluctuations in the original plasma after the Big Bang. And so on. It really seems to be all planned out by design.-What seems planned and designed to you seems higgledy-piggledy to me! If the laws of nature require a black hole at the centre of each galaxy, I don't see how that provides proof of a conscious designer. And I still wonder what might be the point of all this matter appearing and disappearing, and what it has to do with God's purpose, which you believe was to create us. But I had similar trouble understanding the purpose of the dodo!