Rabbi Sacks (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, January 03, 2013, 13:29 (4134 days ago) @ romansh

Dhw: As I see it, they [agnosticism and theism/atheism] can only be mutually exclusive for fundamentalists on either side. The essence of agnosticism is that it remains open to both possibilities while accepting neither.-ROMANSH: I disagree dhw - they can be mutually exclusive for moderates who hold on their definitions too tightly as well. A fundamentalist (strong) atheist might be open to having weak atheists and some agnostics fall within the atheist definition.-Our approach is quite different, but I am a simpler soul than you. For me, a moderate atheist would be one who is not TOTALLY convinced of God's non-existence, in which case he is allowing for some possibility that God does exist, so there is no mutual exclusion between atheism and agnosticism. Ditto of course with theism. My definition of a fundamentalist would be someone who does NOT allow for other possibilities, which automatically entails exclusion. We're back to definitions, as usual!-ROMANSH: Regarding Dawkins scale, I thought it childish, but at least a starting point for discussion.-For those who don't know it, here is Dawkins' scale. I cannot fault it.-1. Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2. De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3. Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4. Completely impartial. Exactly 50 per cent. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5. Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7. Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."-ROMANSH: A while back I did this for myself:-http://www3.telus.net/romansh/juris/beliefbubbles_files/slide0001.htm-it is for discussion and not some absolute logic map. Ideally I would like to have separated deism from theism and some of the bubbles should overlap.-I thought the bubbles did overlap, and very nicely too. I could have done without Gnosticism, though, and without your references to it in your post, as I think it only confuses the issue, especially when linked to agnosticism and atheism. I don't see how you can call Dawkins' "6 leaning towards 7" close to "gnostic agnosticism" or "fundamentalist agnosticism". If there is such a thing as fundamentalist agnosticism, it would have to be category 4 ... as far away from "knowledge" of God's existence/non-existence as one can get. I myself am happy just to say that nobody "knows", but I like the way Dawkins has dealt with that too.
 
I likened Dawkins' arrogant intolerance to that of the religious fundamentalists he attacks.-ROMANSH: I am always careful about accusing others of arrogance, partly for Jungian reasons, but more so another person's passion might come across as arrogance to me. Ultimately the label of 'arrogance' that I might utter, is a reflection of the chemical processes that go on in my brain.-I'm horrified that my reference to "arrogant intolerance" has somehow got linked to you (see David's post)! I use the term to describe any approach that ridicules or threatens other people and their beliefs on the grounds that the speaker is convinced that he knows the truth. (I have plenty of friends who are passionate about their beliefs, but do not ridicule or threaten other people. Passion does not exclude respect.) As David rightly says, despite the many disagreements, there has (nearly) always been respect between participants in our discussions. My apologies if I gave the wrong impression.-ROMANSH: But you are right agnostics have not built strong communities. That is why I spend some time here to show support for the little community that has grown here.-It is greatly appreciated.