Beginning this universe (Introduction)

by dhw, Thursday, December 06, 2012, 08:40 (4179 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: All sort of theories, but Vilenkin says it MUST have a beginning:-http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21628932.000-before-the-big-bang-something-or-not...-dhw: I'm sorry, but for me all this is pure speculation, there is and will probably never be a consensus, and I challenge anyone to provide proof that the universe has not been around forever, regardless of how many bubbles it might have blown and burst.-DAVID: No one has denied Vilenkin's math! Somewhere in the past there was a beginning. This universe had beginning in the Big Bang. What was 'before' the Big Bang caused the Big Bang. Therefore, I disagree strongly with your statement.-There is a misunderstanding here, which is my fault because I have used "universe" in two senses. My reference to "bubbles", taken from the article itself, concerned the idea that there may be/have been multiple universes. I should have quoted this: "He [Susskind] argues that because space inflates exponentially, the volume of the vacuum at later times is overwhelmingly greater than at earlier times. With many more bubble universes in existence, chances are that the patch of vacuum we call home formed later on too." I can see now that you meant our universe post Big Bang, whereas my comment about the universe being around forever meant whatever has existed throughout eternity, prior to the Big Bang. I tried to make this clear in the parenthesis under "Play Trap the Atheist", which you quoted and commented onhw: (NB That does not invalidate the Big Bang theory. It does invalidate the claim that nothing preceded the Big Bang, if it happened.)-DAVID (under "Play Trap the Atheist): The Big Bang is the best theory we have to fit the expansion of the universe. And all the subsequent discoveries such as the CMB fit the theory beautifully. Of course, if you are not there to witness it, it must remain theory. No one ever gets absolute truth. Even science requires faith if it is to advance our knowledge.-I am in no position to dispute the Big Bang theory ... I depend entirely on the experts! My point is that if nothing can come from nothing, we have a possible infinity and eternity of universes (individual cosmoses) before the Big Bang, and an infinity and eternity of possible combinations to give rise to life. This vastly shortens the odds against chance, but of course I am needling you because a deliberate, consciously planned beginning of some kind is so essential to your theism!