Logic and evolution: Plantinga project. God is Back? (Introduction)

by dhw, Sunday, December 27, 2020, 10:58 (1217 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Irrelevant only in your philosophy. The fact that this current universe had a timed appearance which is unexplained is entirely relevant. At Hawking's 70th birthday conference it was fully accepted in a Guth, etc. article there is no before, before the big Bang. Further you are describing a theory known as a 'Big Bounce' which requires a curved universe spacetime and this one is measured as flat.

dhw: This is an astonishing claim from someone who believes in a conscious mind of “pure energy” which engineered the big bang! Of course you believe in a before. And if you can believe in pre-existing and eternal conscious energy, you can believe in pre-existing unconscious and eternal energy and matter. The big bang may be relevant to your belief in conscious design, but it’s not relevant to a discussion on “first cause”.

DAVID: It is extremely relevant. Note the bold above. The only 'before' is God from my view. For the reason that I don't believe your red phrase can accomplish anything without a designing mind hard at work.

The article George quoted was an attempt to convince us that there has to be a first cause, which has to be God. I argued against George’s idea that “there was no time before” the big bang (if the big bang happened). Please look at your reply, quoting Hawking: “There is no before”. You have now simply confirmed what I wrote in relation to your own beliefs. The big bang is only relevant to your design theory. There are alternative versions of a “first cause”, and the fact that you are only prepared to consider one is no justification for quoting Hawking at me!