Dualism versus materialism (Identity)

by David Turell @, Wednesday, July 19, 2017, 19:13 (146 days ago) @ dhw


DAVID: No. I am currently a material living person, but at the same time I experience and use my immaterial self/consciousness. I am me controlling me in both states at the same time. Dualism.

dhw: As long as your soul/you is in control of the seamless mechanism, you accept my statement, but at the same time it is your body that is in control of you/your soul! That is not dualism. It is a contradiction, as exemplified by your next response:

DAVID: Of course, my body/brain responded in my earlier life to fright (adrenalin), pretty women (testosterone directed to my male parts with lust), etc. My material body is directly connected to my brain responses, but my thoughts, my intentions, etc. always appeared as immaterial concepts.

dhw: Once again you are ignoring the contradictions I keep pointing out. Was your material testosterone in charge, or your immaterial will?

My immaterial will/self/consciousness. My material body will have automatic responses I can override.


DAVID: My mental (immaterial) response to a beautiful woman triggered my self (immaterial) through my brain's connection to my body to physically release testosterone which then created the immaterial thought and physical sensation of lust. It is all intertwined. Neither in charge but coordinated together at the two levels.

dhw: We are not talking about the link between the senses and the immaterial thought of lust, which of course are coordinated. I specifically referred to the will which, if you believe in dualism, I suggest to you is the part of your immaterial self that is in charge. Did your decision (to resist or to give in to your lust) depend on your immaterial will or not? If it did, does that not mean that the material self provided the information and the immaterial self took the decision (one way or the other), i.e. was in charge?

My immaterial self.

DAVID: They stem from my immaterial conscious self. I thought I'd been clear about that.

dhw: You had, but since your views change from day to day, I needed confirmation. If ideas etc. stem from your immaterial conscious self or “soul”, it is clearly contradictory to claim that beings could not come up with new ideas without an increase in the size of the brain. If you believe in dualism, it has to be the ideas first and the growth of the brain in response to the need for new actions to implement those ideas.

The artifacts found with each stage of human development show advances in thought which at the same time is evidenced by a larger brain being present. You do not want to accept the logic of those findings. The artifacts must necessarily appear after the arrival of the larger brained hominin who then thought of the m ore complex artifacts. Habilis had hand used stone tools, not the spears of erectus. And the history of sapiens shows complex thought development in the past 50,000 years after existing for 250,000 prior years without much complexity appearing. That does not fit your scenario, especially since the brain shrinks as the thought complexity appears.


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