\"God is organized energy\" (The nature of a \'Creator\')
I am breaking away from the "Darwinist" thread, which I think has now become too diffuse.-DAVID (responding to BBella): GOD is energy, just as you suppose, and since everything is energy, God is everywhere. [...] God is organized energy.-BBella has described it as the "force" that holds everything together, but I seem to remember her also calling it energy in a former post. I don't think anyone would dispute that energy is everywhere, or even that there is a "force" that holds things together. An atheist would probably call it the laws of Nature (George, where are you?) and would have no trouble with the concept of self-organizing energy. The disagreements begin the moment anyone tries to impose attributes on that energy or force. Claims that it is conscious of itself and of us, that it deliberately and specifically set out to create humans, that it even loves humans ... that's where we all go in different directions. But without such claims and such attributes, the energy or force might just as well be called X or Gibberish or shdhrhast7SW9shhf, because it means absolutely nothing.
\"God is organized energy\"
by David Turell 
, Friday, November 26, 2010, 03:54 (4894 days ago) @ dhw
> DAVID (responding to BBella): GOD is energy, just as you suppose, and since everything is energy, God is everywhere. [...] God is organized energy. > The disagreements begin the moment anyone tries to impose attributes on that energy or force. Claims that it is conscious of itself and of us, that it deliberately and specifically set out to create humans, that it even loves humans ... that's where we all go in different directions.-If we have consciousness and intelligence, it is not difficult to think that a universal intelligence would be similar to us. How many kinds of intelligence can there be: Cruel, thoughtless, devious? Then why bother to fool with creating us or observing us? I think one can think sensibly about what the intelligence might do? Love us, no way to know? All the other religious attributes: omniscience, knowing past and future, maybe; omnipotent, very likely, having made the universe; and so forth. Some guesses will be better than others, but qwe will never know for sure if any of our guesses are correct.
\"God is organized energy\"
DAVID (responding to BBella): GOD is energy, just as you suppose, and since everything is energy, God is everywhere. [...] God is organized energy.-dhw: The disagreements begin the moment anyone tries to impose attributes on that energy or force. Claims that it is conscious of itself and of us, that it deliberately and specifically set out to create humans, that it even loves humans ... that's where we all go in different directions.-DAVID: If we have consciousness and intelligence, it is not difficult to think that a universal intelligence would be similar to us. How many kinds of intelligence can there be: Cruel, thoughtless, devious? Then why bother to fool with creating us or observing us? I think one can think sensibly about what the intelligence might do? Love us, no way to know? All the other religious attributes: omniscience, knowing past and future, maybe; omnipotent, very likely, having made the universe; and so forth. Some guesses will be better than others, but we will never know for sure if any of our guesses are correct.-This is an important post because it highlights both the inadequacies and the deceptiveness of language. In the first statement you equate God with "energy". We all know that energy exists and is everywhere, and so the temptation (I'm sure this was not your intention) is to regard this as some kind of proof that God exists and is everywhere. My response was meant to indicate that energy means energy, and without attributes the word "God" then becomes meaningless. In your latest reply you have changed the term to "universal intelligence", which is intelligent by definition. But energy is not intelligent by definition, and so you cannot equate a UI/ God with energy. (I agree with you that IF there is a UI, we will have a great deal in common with it.) I see this as exactly the same pitfall as the Neo-Darwinist claim that natural selection does not depend on chance and is a proven fact, and therefore anyone who challenges evolution is an idiot. NS, of course, is only part of the theory of evolution - just as energy is only part of God - but by making out that the two terms are synonymous, the Neo-Darwinist glosses over the problems (e.g. innovations) and the chance elements (e.g. mutations) of the rest of the theory.-None of this is meant as a criticism of your posts. I'm only trying to make sure we stay alert to misleading use of language.
\"God is organized energy\"
by David Turell , Friday, November 26, 2010, 15:39 (4894 days ago) @ dhw
> This is an important post because it highlights both the inadequacies and the deceptiveness of language. In the first statement you equate God with "energy". We all know that energy exists and is everywhere, and so the temptation (I'm sure this was not your intention) is to regard this as some kind of proof that God exists and is everywhere. My response was meant to indicate that energy means energy, and without attributes the word "God" then becomes meaningless. In your latest reply you have changed the term to "universal intelligence", which is intelligent by definition. But energy is not intelligent by definition, and so you cannot equate a UI/ God with energy. (I agree with you that IF there is a UI, we will have a great deal in common with it.)-I think we are talking across each other: Principal thoughts are: matter is energy on the outside and mind is energy on the inside. The UI is pure energy 'organized' into intellect. My intellect is not my brain, which looks and feels like fatty jello. God is the UI, organized energy. Yes energy is not intelligent unless it is organized into an intellectual mind. God isthat universal mind. Any old energy, the way you appproach it, is avaikable anywhere. Rub your TV screen, get static sparks. We are not discussing at that level.
\"God is organized energy\"
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Friday, December 03, 2010, 05:34 (4887 days ago) @ David Turell
Thought, human thought that is, is organized energy. It has the potential to imagine, love, hate, create, destroy, etc. Why is it such a stretch to say that Other energy, that outside of the human body, posses the same capability on a much larger scale. In fact, absolutely nothing is possible without organized energy. No planetary orbits, no gust of wind, no daydreams while relaxing in your hammock, not even the tiniest of quantum fluctuations. If you can think of something more pervasive, more controlling, more flexible in application, and more capable of accomplishment than organized energy, I would love to know.
\"God is organized energy\"
TONY (B_M): Nothing is possible without organized energy. [...] If you can think of something more pervasive, more controlling, more flexible in application, and more capable of accomplishment that organized energy, I would love to know.-You addressed this to David, but David's view is even more emphatic than yours ... hence the title of this thread. He says: "The UI is pure energy 'organized' into intellect."-I like this as a definition of God, but if I were an atheist, I would have no trouble agreeing with your own statement. (George, come back!) I would say that the universe and everything in it consists of self-organizing energy. In other words, you can say God is organized energy, but an atheist will say organized energy is not God. The crux of the whole argument is whether organized energy is conscious of itself, or merely acts and reacts according to unconscious laws of Nature. A Universal Intelligence is by definition intelligent and therefore conscious. If there is no UI, then energy organizes itself. From a neutral standpoint, then, the quote should read: "If there is a UI/God, it is organized energy." Whether this actually gets us anywhere I'm not sure!
\"God is organized energy\"
by Balance_Maintained , U.S.A., Sunday, December 05, 2010, 02:34 (4885 days ago) @ dhw
... The crux of the whole argument is whether organized energy is conscious of itself, or merely acts and reacts according to unconscious laws of Nature. A Universal Intelligence is by definition intelligent and therefore conscious. If there is no UI, then energy organizes itself. From a neutral standpoint, then, the quote should read: "If there is a UI/God, it is organized energy." Whether this actually gets us anywhere I'm not sure!-Self-organizing implies intelligence of a form. As for another little tidbit, the 'unconscious laws of nature' are by their very essence a form of organized energy. So saying that "acts and reacts according to unconscious laws of Nature" is much like saying acts and reacts according to its own laws. Laws imply planned action/consequence/reaction scenarios, which in turn imply intelligence. The problem with this argument, to my mind at least, is that no matter which way we try to reductively argue this concept, we will always come back to intelligence, and therefore a UI of some form. This is why I have such a problem with the atheistic point of view(no offense George).