Chapter 2 of \"Does it Matter:\"--Matter doesn\'t exist! (Humans)

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Friday, September 17, 2010, 03:33 (4990 days ago)

Alright, maybe a little bit loaded title here, but our author has really run aground in this chapter--either that or I'm just not reading his argument correctly. -"For even if the physical universe is all there is, our scientific data, that is, pointer readings, does not tell us of what it is made. For the nature of that physical universe lies hidden always behind the pointer-reading."-Quantum theory has told us what matter is. Matter consists of wave probabilities of positive, negative, and neutral charge. -These nonlocal probabilities collapse into local phenomenon whenever an "observation" is made, and in the sense of physicists, an "observation" can be something as mundane as two particles colliding. -In some respects he is repeating an argument from chapter one on why man can never create consciousness: there is more to human experience than one can write into a concise form. However in the case of matter--there is no "human experience" to talk about until we have humans. -Where he completely flies off the tracks is in the next excerpt: "If according to reductionists, consciousness must be a product of the mechanical processes of unconscious matter, that is seeing can be causally and logically derived from being seen, then according to them, seeing is not primary. Being seen is primary.-Intuitively, one feels that there is something wrong here. How can reality be derived from a passive verb?"-Firstly; reality isn't derived from a passive verb at all. But the hidden nature of his fallacious thinking lies ahead. But from what I can construct here: Because materialists place more value on "what can be seen," they make that the primary. But consciousness cannot be seen. Therefore, how can one take an entire factor of existence and not make it primary? -Next: He resurrects an old (and very easily dismissed) argument from Berkeley. 
"But something whose whole essence is to be perceived is cimply an idea in a mind because it by definition cannot exist except by being perceived by some mind." -In other words: If a tree falls in the forest with no one to witness, does it make a sound? -Here's the nail in his own coffin:
"The conclusion is inescapable. It is that consciousness is logically prior to unconscious matter. Without consciousness, nothing can exist." [emphasis added]-Never before have I read such rubbish from an otherwise well-educated man. According to this idea, when we go to sleep, the world ceases to exist. -The answer to this is of course--it ceases to exist for you. But the universe, without man, would still exist; if we destroy ourselves, does this then mean, all existence ends? Wow. I don't really want to read on from here, but I've already dug in this far. Too bad we couldn't get him on the forum. -Is there anything here in what I've quoted that negates my arguments here? Any other questions/comments? Am I off base?

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Chapter 2 of \"Does it Matter:\"--Matter doesn\'t exist!

by dhw, Friday, September 17, 2010, 12:11 (4990 days ago) @ xeno6696

MATT: Is there anything here in what I've quoted that negates my arguments here? Any other questions/comments? Am I off base?-I've read all this a couple of times, and am as mystified as you by the argument that if consciousness is a product of the mechanical processes of unconscious matter, it means "that seeing can be causally and logically derived from being seen." As I understand it, the materialist view is that unconscious matter somehow contrived to combine itself in such a way that it gave rise to perception (= seeing) and awareness of perception (= consciousness). How the heck does this mean that being seen is the cause of sight, let alone consciousness? Similarly, "without consciousness, nothing can exist" is an incomprehensible leap of reasoning. Maybe he's cottoned onto the obvious fact that without perception nothing can be perceived, and without consciousness there can be no awareness of perception, but the argument that there is nothing to be perceived until we perceive it means that we create what we see (as you say, back to Berkeley). If he doesn't believe in a material universe independent of our perception, it's a wonder he's survived long enough to write his book.-Of course the quotes are out of context, and I may not have understood them myself, so my remarks may be grossly unfair, but from what you have told us so far, I'd say your arguments are spot on. My only question to you would be: why bother?

Chapter 2 of \"Does it Matter:\"--Matter doesn\'t exist!

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Saturday, September 18, 2010, 06:10 (4989 days ago) @ dhw

MATT: Is there anything here in what I've quoted that negates my arguments here? Any other questions/comments? Am I off base?
> 
> I've read all this a couple of times, and am as mystified as you by the argument that if consciousness is a product of the mechanical processes of unconscious matter, it means "that seeing can be causally and logically derived from being seen." As I understand it, the materialist view is that unconscious matter somehow contrived to combine itself in such a way that it gave rise to perception (= seeing) and awareness of perception (= consciousness). How the heck does this mean that being seen is the cause of sight, let alone consciousness? Similarly, "without consciousness, nothing can exist" is an incomprehensible leap of reasoning. Maybe he's cottoned onto the obvious fact that without perception nothing can be perceived, and without consciousness there can be no awareness of perception, but the argument that there is nothing to be perceived until we perceive it means that we create what we see (as you say, back to Berkeley). If he doesn't believe in a material universe independent of our perception, it's a wonder he's survived long enough to write his book.
> 
> Of course the quotes are out of context, and I may not have understood them myself, so my remarks may be grossly unfair, but from what you have told us so far, I'd say your arguments are spot on. My only question to you would be: why bother?-In regards to "why bother," I'm attempting to find a way that my epistemology is flawed. I've mentioned before that I lean materialist on many things, most of this is based on epistemology. The scientific method is unparalleled in finding reliable, actionable knowledge--even though it can sometimes take a hundred years to do it. I apply its principles at my work, and in nearly every conscious thing I do. -I'm pretty strict in what I call knowledge and opinion, and it's possible that many things everyone else considers knowledge, I consider opinion. But I'm trying to reflect to see if I might be wrong; I figure a modern assault on materialism might not be a bad place to begin.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Chapter 2 of \"Does it Matter:\"--Matter doesn\'t exist!

by dhw, Saturday, September 18, 2010, 12:56 (4988 days ago) @ xeno6696

DHW: Of course the quotes are out of context, and I may not have understood them myself, so my remarks may be grossly unfair, but from what you have told us so far, I'd say your arguments are spot on. My only question to you would be: why bother?-MATT: In regards to "why bother," I'm attempting to find a way that my epistemology is flawed. I've mentioned before that I lean materialist on many things, most of this is based on epistemology. The scientific method is unparalleled in finding reliable, actionable knowledge--even though it can sometimes take a hundred years to do it. I apply its principles at my work, and in nearly every conscious thing I do. 
I'm pretty strict in what I call knowledge and opinion, and it's possible that many things everyone else considers knowledge, I consider opinion. But I'm trying to reflect to see if I might be wrong; I figure a modern assault on materialism might not be a bad place to begin.-Sorry if my question was misleading! I only asked "why bother?" because you had yourself pointed out the flaws in Dunston's Martin's reasoning, and so I didn't see the point in going on with the book. I certainly didn't mean to question your purpose in starting it, which I find totally admirable.

Chapter 2 of \"Does it Matter:\"--Matter doesn\'t exist!

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Sunday, September 19, 2010, 00:43 (4988 days ago) @ dhw

DHW: Of course the quotes are out of context, and I may not have understood them myself, so my remarks may be grossly unfair, but from what you have told us so far, I'd say your arguments are spot on. My only question to you would be: why bother?
> 
> MATT: In regards to "why bother," I'm attempting to find a way that my epistemology is flawed. I've mentioned before that I lean materialist on many things, most of this is based on epistemology. The scientific method is unparalleled in finding reliable, actionable knowledge--even though it can sometimes take a hundred years to do it. I apply its principles at my work, and in nearly every conscious thing I do. 
> I'm pretty strict in what I call knowledge and opinion, and it's possible that many things everyone else considers knowledge, I consider opinion. But I'm trying to reflect to see if I might be wrong; I figure a modern assault on materialism might not be a bad place to begin.
> 
> Sorry if my question was misleading! I only asked "why bother?" because you had yourself pointed out the flaws in Dunston's Martin's reasoning, and so I didn't see the point in going on with the book. I certainly didn't mean to question your purpose in starting it, which I find totally admirable.-No misunderstanding here: I read you correctly. The reason I will choose to continue is that 1. He has pointed out some things I haven't thought about before, and that's always good. And 2: If he's a critic of materialism, and I hold that materialism underpins most of my beliefs... well I have to wade through the chaff and try to find wheat then.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Chapter 2 of \"Does it Matter:\"--Matter doesn\'t exist!

by dhw, Sunday, September 19, 2010, 11:35 (4988 days ago) @ xeno6696

MATT: No misunderstanding here: I read you correctly. The reason I will choose to continue is that 1. He has pointed out some things I haven't thought about before, and that's always good. And 2: If he's a critic of materialism, and I hold that materialism underpins most of my beliefs... well I have to wade through the chaff and try to find wheat then.----All clear, and I take my hat off to you. I must say I was also touched by your post at 04.13 this morning under The Far East, in which you say you have learned a lot from the discussions here. So have I ... a good deal of it from you. You also wrote: "as much as it can humble, the discovery of error in my thinking means I'm growing." As someone who is quite used to being humbled, I must say that the different fields and perspectives opened up by our various contributors makes the humiliation surprisingly enjoyable ... and I'm not a masochist!

Chapter 2 of \"Does it Matter:\"--Matter doesn\'t exist!

by Balance_Maintained @, U.S.A., Sunday, September 19, 2010, 12:59 (4987 days ago) @ dhw

It is so refreshing to be debating with educated people who lack the arrogance so common. Thanks for allowing me into this wonderful little niche were we can talk from many different perspectives without conceit, learn from our mistakes, and freely admit that "I don't know, and that's OK."

Chapter 2 of \"Does it Matter:\"--Matter doesn\'t exist!

by David Turell @, Sunday, September 19, 2010, 14:52 (4987 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

It is so refreshing to be debating with educated people who lack the arrogance so common. Thanks for allowing me into this wonderful little niche were we can talk from many different perspectives without conceit, learn from our mistakes, and freely admit that "I don't know, and that's OK."-Educated skepticism leads to folks like Bjorn Lomborg, thank goodness. And to this site. Welcome.

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