Eben Alexander speech (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 30, 2018, 05:40 (320 days ago)

Eben Alexander speech

by dhw, Sunday, December 30, 2018, 08:56 (320 days ago) @ David Turell

Thank you very much for this. I'll have to delay responding until I've had time to listen to it, which I look forward to doing when I have an hour and a half to spare.

Eben Alexander speech about Proof of Heaven

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 30, 2018, 22:16 (320 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Thank you very much for this. I'll have to delay responding until I've had time to listen to it, which I look forward to doing when I have an hour and a half to spare.

Do go back and watch the video. I have finally seen/heard the whole of it. Very powerful. It will make you understand why the thousands of NDE's cannot be ignored. There are many thousands of them recorded and Alexander in his current studies has reviewed many of them. The vital importance of quantum mechanics is discussed as it relates to the consciousness of the folks who study quantum reality and is part of consciousness. It will show you why I constantly bring up quantum theory as it is still being developed. Eben calls the brain a filter for consciousness instead of a receiver as I do. I got that term from van Lommel the cardiologist, but the words have the same meaning. Our brains do not create consciousness.

I await your comments an would like to hear from others who follow this website.

Eben Alexander speech about Proof of Heaven

by dhw, Monday, December 31, 2018, 12:52 (319 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Thank you very much for this. I'll have to delay responding until I've had time to listen to it, which I look forward to doing when I have an hour and a half to spare.

DAVID: Do go back and watch the video. I have finally seen/heard the whole of it. Very powerful. It will make you understand why the thousands of NDE's cannot be ignored. There are many thousands of them recorded and Alexander in his current studies has reviewed many of them. The vital importance of quantum mechanics is discussed as it relates to the consciousness of the folks who study quantum reality and is part of consciousness. It will show you why I constantly bring up quantum theory as it is still being developed. Eben calls the brain a filter for consciousness instead of a receiver as I do. I got that term from van Lommel the cardiologist, but the words have the same meaning. Our brains do not create consciousness.

I await your comments and would like to hear from others who follow this website.

I fully intend to watch it. As I have said repeatedly, NDEs and other psychic experiences are one of the reasons why I cannot embrace atheism. But please give me time!

Eben Alexander speech about Proof of Heaven

by David Turell @, Monday, December 31, 2018, 15:43 (319 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Thank you very much for this. I'll have to delay responding until I've had time to listen to it, which I look forward to doing when I have an hour and a half to spare.

DAVID: Do go back and watch the video. I have finally seen/heard the whole of it. Very powerful. It will make you understand why the thousands of NDE's cannot be ignored. There are many thousands of them recorded and Alexander in his current studies has reviewed many of them. The vital importance of quantum mechanics is discussed as it relates to the consciousness of the folks who study quantum reality and is part of consciousness. It will show you why I constantly bring up quantum theory as it is still being developed. Eben calls the brain a filter for consciousness instead of a receiver as I do. I got that term from van Lommel the cardiologist, but the words have the same meaning. Our brains do not create consciousness.

I await your comments and would like to hear from others who follow this website.

dhw: I fully intend to watch it. As I have said repeatedly, NDEs and other psychic experiences are one of the reasons why I cannot embrace atheism. But please give me time!

Sorry it seemed like I was pushing you. I was simply touting it as very worthwhile omce I had the time to see/listen to it all

Eben Alexander speech about Proof of Heaven

by dhw, Tuesday, January 01, 2019, 11:34 (318 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: I fully intend to watch it. As I have said repeatedly, NDEs and other psychic experiences are one of the reasons why I cannot embrace atheism. But please give me time!

DAVID: Sorry it seemed like I was pushing you. I was simply touting it as very worthwhile omce I had the time to see/listen to it all.

No problem. I'm very keen to see it, and it really is a matter of finding 90 spare minutes. I will certainly do so some time this week.

Eben Alexander speech

by dhw, Wednesday, January 02, 2019, 12:05 (317 days ago) @ David Turell

I watched the Eben Alexander lecture last night. As I have emphasized in the past, the two factors that make it impossible for me to embrace atheism are the complexities of living organisms (i.e. the case for design which you, David, present with the utmost clarity) and psychic experiences, which include NDEs. Nothing has changed in this regard.

As for the lecture, I must confess it left me rather frustrated. His rambling style irritated me to the point at which, on several occasions, I felt like shouting; “Get on with it!” Yes, we know that consciousness is the hard problem, and you and I have discussed it ourselves at enormous lengths. No, scientific materialism does not answer all our questions. Yes, you have also claimed that quantum mechanics may hold the key to “reality”. Yes, unconditional love is wonderful. But by the time he’d finished rambling and repeating himself, there was no time left to explain just what he meant by the brain being a filter for consciousness, or how he thinks quantum mechanics solves the hard problem (dropping a few famous names explains nothing), or how one can be oneself in Heaven without memory or language. He mentions several times that NDE-ers experience their lives flashing before them with a more intense reality than when they were back on Earth, but that would not be possible if in death we had no memory. He does, however, say that his NDE was unique, and did not match others he has since read about. So Heaven is presumably different for different people. Isn’t that odd? There’s a weird bit about “you can do no wrong” but “you reap what you sow” so “there’s no need for hell.” No time to explain the moral message of this. I am darting about, just as he did. The story of the dead sister is a very touching ending – though again he drags it out, presumably for dramatic effect – and at last we have a piece of information that he could not have known about beforehand. That is the only evidence we have for the authenticity of this whole experience, but fortunately there are other such instances in the history of NDEs which for me make it essential to keep an open mind on his as well.

Eben Alexander’s vision will fulfil the wishes of all those who hope for heaven. He said at the beginning that there would be time for questions. There wasn’t, but in any case I doubt if the Theosophical Society would have posed many sceptical questions. These would have been posed by the authors of websites that claim to debunk the whole story. I read some of these, and they cast doubts on his statement that the coma was caused by his meningitis (they say it was induced by Laura Potter and was not continuous, and at times he was “conscious but delirious”) and they also probe into his personal life, which involves malpractice, covering up evidence, and facing lawsuits running into millions of dollars, but he has now made a fortune from his book and from the commercial spin-offs. They clearly question his integrity, but other websites debunk the debunking (and the integrity of the debunkers), though not the tales of malpractice. I can’t possibly make any sort of judgement. I can only give you my response to the lecture itself and assure you that for all my frustration, I remain totally open-minded on the subject of psychic experiences including NDEs.

Eben Alexander speech

by David Turell @, Wednesday, January 02, 2019, 14:47 (317 days ago) @ dhw
edited by David Turell, Wednesday, January 02, 2019, 15:04

dhw: I watched the Eben Alexander lecture last night. As I have emphasized in the past, the two factors that make it impossible for me to embrace atheism are the complexities of living organisms (i.e. the case for design which you, David, present with the utmost clarity) and psychic experiences, which include NDEs. Nothing has changed in this regard.

As for the lecture, I must confess it left me rather frustrated. His rambling style irritated me to the point at which, on several occasions, I felt like shouting; “Get on with it!” Yes, we know that consciousness is the hard problem, and you and I have discussed it ourselves at enormous lengths. No, scientific materialism does not answer all our questions. Yes, you have also claimed that quantum mechanics may hold the key to “reality”. Yes, unconditional love is wonderful. But by the time he’d finished rambling and repeating himself, there was no time left to explain just what he meant by the brain being a filter for consciousness, or how he thinks quantum mechanics solves the hard problem (dropping a few famous names explains nothing), or how one can be oneself in Heaven without memory or language. He mentions several times that NDE-ers experience their lives flashing before them with a more intense reality than when they were back on Earth, but that would not be possible if in death we had no memory. He does, however, say that his NDE was unique, and did not match others he has since read about. So Heaven is presumably different for different people. Isn’t that odd? There’s a weird bit about “you can do no wrong” but “you reap what you sow” so “there’s no need for hell.” No time to explain the moral message of this. I am darting about, just as he did. The story of the dead sister is a very touching ending – though again he drags it out, presumably for dramatic effect – and at last we have a piece of information that he could not have known about beforehand. That is the only evidence we have for the authenticity of this whole experience, but fortunately there are other such instances in the history of NDEs which for me make it essential to keep an open mind on his as well.

Eben Alexander’s vision will fulfil the wishes of all those who hope for heaven. He said at the beginning that there would be time for questions. There wasn’t, but in any case I doubt if the Theosophical Society would have posed many sceptical questions. These would have been posed by the authors of websites that claim to debunk the whole story. I read some of these, and they cast doubts on his statement that the coma was caused by his meningitis (they say it was induced by Laura Potter and was not continuous, and at times he was “conscious but delirious”) and they also probe into his personal life, which involves malpractice, covering up evidence, and facing lawsuits running into millions of dollars, but he has now made a fortune from his book and from the commercial spin-offs. They clearly question his integrity, but other websites debunk the debunking (and the integrity of the debunkers), though not the tales of malpractice. I can’t possibly make any sort of judgement. I can only give you my response to the lecture itself and assure you that for all my frustration, I remain totally open-minded on the subject of psychic experiences including NDEs.

I agree that his talk was rambling and over long. Dr. Laura Potter has stated her account was misstated and misinterpreted and incompletely represented in the Esquire article. Deepening a coma is standard medical practice. Debunkers have debunked The original debunkers as is usual. As for malpractice cases, in this country lawyers have created an active malpractice industry, and I was subject to several. We all carry insurance to handle it. No one has denied his previous academic position in medical school. I'm sure there were questions after the talk, but the You tube version did not show the questions. Thank you for listening to it, since you had not read the book.

Note this article. Dr. Potter was the ER MD who saw him when he hit the ER on day one!

http://exploreabitmore.blogspot.com/2013/08/eben-alexander-esquire-update.html

Eben Alexander speech

by dhw, Thursday, January 03, 2019, 10:07 (316 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I agree that his talk was rambling and over long. Dr. Laura Potter has stated her account was misstated and misinterpreted and incompletely represented in the Esquire article. Deepening a coma is standard medical practice. Debunkers have debunked The original debunkers as is usual. As for malpractice cases, in this country lawyers have created an active malpractice industry, and I was subject to several. We all carry insurance to handle it. No one has denied his previous academic position in medical school. I'm sure there were questions after the talk, but the You tube version did not show the questions. Thank you for listening to it, since you had not read the book.

It’s I who have to thank you for the constant stream of articles you present. This is what keeps the forum going, even if we generally disagree on the conclusions to be drawn from the latest discoveries!

DAVID: Note this article. Dr. Potter was the ER MD who saw him when he hit the ER on day one!
http://exploreabitmore.blogspot.com/2013/08/eben-alexander-esquire-update.html

I actually read the complete interview with Robert Mays, which is why I mentioned the debunkers debunking the debunkers. However, I was struck by the following in this article:

QUOTE: “Eben's NDE never was generally considered one of the better NDEs, as far as providing solid evidence along these lines. But, it certainly shouldn't be dismissed as "just a hallucination", either.”

That is also my view. Incidentally, another thing I forgot to mention was Eben Alexander’s belief in reincarnation, which once more he failed to elaborate on. I really can’t see how this fits in with his experience of a perfect Heaven.

Eben Alexander speech

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 03, 2019, 18:59 (316 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: I agree that his talk was rambling and over long. Dr. Laura Potter has stated her account was misstated and misinterpreted and incompletely represented in the Esquire article. Deepening a coma is standard medical practice. Debunkers have debunked The original debunkers as is usual. As for malpractice cases, in this country lawyers have created an active malpractice industry, and I was subject to several. We all carry insurance to handle it. No one has denied his previous academic position in medical school. I'm sure there were questions after the talk, but the You tube version did not show the questions. Thank you for listening to it, since you had not read the book.

It’s I who have to thank you for the constant stream of articles you present. This is what keeps the forum going, even if we generally disagree on the conclusions to be drawn from the latest discoveries!

DAVID: Note this article. Dr. Potter was the ER MD who saw him when he hit the ER on day one!
http://exploreabitmore.blogspot.com/2013/08/eben-alexander-esquire-update.html

dhw: I actually read the complete interview with Robert Mays, which is why I mentioned the debunkers debunking the debunkers. However, I was struck by the following in this article:

QUOTE: “Eben's NDE never was generally considered one of the better NDEs, as far as providing solid evidence along these lines. But, it certainly shouldn't be dismissed as "just a hallucination", either.”

That is also my view. Incidentally, another thing I forgot to mention was Eben Alexander’s belief in reincarnation, which once more he failed to elaborate on. I really can’t see how this fits in with his experience of a perfect Heaven.

I don't know where the reincarnation stuff came from. Actually the only 'proof' he offers is his recognition of his sister. There are better NDE's with real third party confirmation.

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