Just for Matt (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Monday, January 04, 2010, 21:23 (5233 days ago)

I just ran across a review of "This is your Brain on Music", by Daniel Levitin, 2007.-He states: The perception of pitch, tempo, the emotions invoked by a piece of music and the lyrics of a song all use different parts of the brain albeit simultaneously. -With 100 billion neurons and thousands of ways each can connect, can a human-desgned computer ever do this?-Levitin is a former rock musician, now professor at Stanford.

Just for Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Monday, January 04, 2010, 22:02 (5233 days ago) @ David Turell

I just ran across a review of "This is your Brain on Music", by Daniel Levitin, 2007.
> 
> He states: The perception of pitch, tempo, the emotions invoked by a piece of music and the lyrics of a song all use different parts of the brain albeit simultaneously. 
> 
> With 100 billion neurons and thousands of ways each can connect, can a human-desgned computer ever do this?
> 
> Levitin is a former rock musician, now professor at Stanford.-It's funny you mention this, as I just saw THIS in my ACM newsletter:-http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1240410/The-real-Frankenstein-experiment-One-mans-mission-create-living-mind-inside-machine.html

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Just for Matt

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 05, 2010, 19:54 (5232 days ago) @ xeno6696


> > With 100 billion neurons and thousands of ways each can connect, can a human-desgned computer ever do this?-
I found another 'can a computer do this article'. Can a computer be as plastic as the brain?-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091009092351.htm

Just for Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, January 06, 2010, 00:19 (5232 days ago) @ David Turell


> > > With 100 billion neurons and thousands of ways each can connect, can a human-desgned computer ever do this?
> 
> 
> I found another 'can a computer do this article'. Can a computer be as plastic as the brain?
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091009092351.htm-The answer to this is yes, both in principle and in practice: The art of AI programming is set up so that the machine must learn; actually the entire field of genetic algorithms is essentially a computer-adaptive process to respond to changing stimuli. -The issue right now is as stated before--simply one of scale. Actually, our discussion of quantum computing will have a tremendous impact here as well; the fluidity of the mind works much more like a flock of birds than a clunky 0 or 1 computation--exactly the kind of problem quantum computing will solve.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Just for Matt

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Wednesday, January 06, 2010, 17:19 (5231 days ago) @ xeno6696

This may interest you-http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/P.Bentley/igdigitalbiology/-Peter J. Bentley of UCL was one of the speakers in the "Dear Darwin" series of letters to Darwin, broadcast on BBC Radio and recently repeated, supposedly informing Darwin of what scientists are doing with his ideas. -Bentley is involved in using the principles of natural selection in "evolutionary design" of engineering, among other projects.

--
GPJ

Just for Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Wednesday, January 06, 2010, 17:58 (5231 days ago) @ George Jelliss

George,
> This may interest you
> 
> http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/P.Bentley/igdigitalbiology/
> 
> Peter J. Bentley of UCL was one of the speakers in the "Dear Darwin" series of letters to Darwin, broadcast on BBC Radio and recently repeated, supposedly informing Darwin of what scientists are doing with his ideas. 
> 
> Bentley is involved in using the principles of natural selection in "evolutionary design" of engineering, among other projects.-http://depts.washington.edu/bakerpg/-This guy's lab is preeminent in the field of computational biochemistry. It's not limited to supercomputing either; you can download a puzzle game called fold-it, and children have been designing better biochemical molecules than some PhD's! You get points on an international leader board and credit for your discovery.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Just for Matt

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 07, 2010, 00:58 (5231 days ago) @ xeno6696

Matt: Is this quote accurate about Nietzsche:-"In an earlier post I commented on Alasdair Cochrane's efforts to jettison "inherent dignity" as a criterion for determining whether it is moral to treat certain classes of humans as objects. Cochrane is impatient with the "dignity criterion," because it prevents actions that he deems beneficial, for example medical experiments on human guinea pigs that might lead to advances in medicine. -As I thought more about Cochrane's thesis, it became clear to me that our old friend Nietzsche was lurking just beneath the surface of his arguments. Nietzsche had no use for what he called "slave morality." For Nietzsche, "good" does not mean adherence to a moral standard. Instead, it is more or less a synonym for "strong." Thus, the "master's morality" (characterized by words such as "healthy," "powerful," "vigorous," "vital," and "wealthy") is good, and the "slave's morality" (characterized by words like "weak," "poor" "decrepit," "sick," and "infirm") is "bad." -Nietzsche posited that the slaves (the vast majority of people) had conspired to impose their slave morality on the masters as an act of self-protection against the "natural" dominance of the masters, and that the slaves had especially used Christianity (which he called a "slave religion") for this purpose. The remedy for this unnatural state of affairs was for the master (the "ubermensch," i.e., "superman") to throw off the constraints of traditional slave morality and follow his own "inner law." And of course a subjective inner law is no law at all. Nietzsche was inviting the ubermensch to do whatever he desired, and if he were able to do it ... i.e., if he were able to impose his will on others ... then by definition it was good.-In Cochrane's conception of morality, the strong dominate the weak and defenseless to the point of killing them on a whim (abortion) or using them as objects (medical research subjects). And don't bother him with your slave morality and its concepts of inherent human dignity. For Cochrane, imposing one's will on another is, by definition, "good." God help us if his view prevails."-I know nothing about him.

Just for Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Thursday, January 07, 2010, 01:57 (5231 days ago) @ David Turell

Matt: Is this quote accurate about Nietzsche:
> 
> "In an earlier post I commented on Alasdair Cochrane's efforts to jettison "inherent dignity" as a criterion for determining whether it is moral to treat certain classes of humans as objects. Cochrane is impatient with the "dignity criterion," because it prevents actions that he deems beneficial, for example medical experiments on human guinea pigs that might lead to advances in medicine. 
> 
> As I thought more about Cochrane's thesis, it became clear to me that our old friend Nietzsche was lurking just beneath the surface of his arguments. Nietzsche had no use for what he called "slave morality." For Nietzsche, "good" does not mean adherence to a moral standard. Instead, it is more or less a synonym for "strong." Thus, the "master's morality" (characterized by words such as "healthy," "powerful," "vigorous," "vital," and "wealthy") is good, and the "slave's morality" (characterized by words like "weak," "poor" "decrepit," "sick," and "infirm") is "bad." 
> -This is a reading that is certainly possible if you read Nietzsche Linearly. My Special Topics prof is the school's expert on N, and he says flat out "Nietzsche is dangerous." But not in the way interpreted here. N is dangerous if you don't couple a holistic (or mystical, if you will) engagement of the text. It's also important to note that you can't treat any of N's works as a discrete volume: everything intertwines with everything else. -If N attributes being "infirm" to "bad," then he includes everyone he ever wrote about including himself. In "Beyond Good and Evil," he actually goes so far as to say that all mankind is sick,though with what will take me abreast of the appraisal. -> Nietzsche posited that the slaves (the vast majority of people) had conspired to impose their slave morality on the masters as an act of self-protection against the "natural" dominance of the masters, and that the slaves had especially used Christianity (which he called a "slave religion") for this purpose. The remedy for this unnatural state of affairs was for the master (the "ubermensch," i.e., "superman") to throw off the constraints of traditional slave morality and follow his own "inner law." And of course a subjective inner law is no law at all. Nietzsche was inviting the ubermensch to do whatever he desired, and if he were able to do it ... i.e., if he were able to impose his will on others ... then by definition it was good.
> -The problem with an interpretation of N relying on the ubermensch as some kind of ultimate end, is that it is refuted throughout the only book where it is directly mentioned, "Thus Spoke Zarathustra." When you read TSZ, the entire fourth section helps to parody the entire work, but drills through the point that each man "masters one virtue," and that it is clear (to me) that the ubermensch is a metaphor to mankind itself.-Also missing is that N viewed the concept of being a "great man" as one that was actually achievable: he wouldn't have agreed with a "natural leader" in the idea that a person was simply born to a position of leadership--because to N all things worthwhile come from great struggle, and the meek are those that don't rise to the challenge.-It is important to note that much of N's criticism is directed at Victorian Lutheran Christianity--and that religion stuffs the concept of "sheep," "meek," and other metaphors of servitude to the point that to me it does transform it to a slave religion. -> In Cochrane's conception of morality, the strong dominate the weak and defenseless to the point of killing them on a whim (abortion) or using them as objects (medical research subjects). And don't bother him with your slave morality and its concepts of inherent human dignity. For Cochrane, imposing one's will on another is, by definition, "good." God help us if his view prevails."
> 
> I know nothing about him.-It's a mainstream christian view of Nietzsche. Don't put too much stock in it. Evangelicals hate him because he wrote "God is Dead," but if you read Emerson--a grand influence on N--you realize that Emerson said it first; and Emerson was a protestant preacher.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Just for Matt

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 07, 2010, 16:36 (5230 days ago) @ xeno6696


> It's a mainstream christian view of Nietzsche. Don't put too much stock in it. Evangelicals hate him because he wrote "God is Dead," but if you read Emerson--a grand influence on N--you realize that Emerson said it first; and Emerson was a protestant preacher.-Thanks for the interpretation. I don't think I will do any followup on him. I've enjoyed life and have had a wonderfully optimistic time enjoying people, helping my patients and other folks.

Just for Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Thursday, January 07, 2010, 18:15 (5230 days ago) @ David Turell


> > It's a mainstream christian view of Nietzsche. Don't put too much stock in it. Evangelicals hate him because he wrote "God is Dead," but if you read Emerson--a grand influence on N--you realize that Emerson said it first; and Emerson was a protestant preacher.
> 
> Thanks for the interpretation. I don't think I will do any followup on him. I've enjoyed life and have had a wonderfully optimistic time enjoying people, helping my patients and other folks.-I've found that in every instance where I engaged such posts on N, that the belief of what N stands for is more powerful than the truth for far too many.-Historically, this is also due to the fact that the Reich had a department deliberately created to interpret N to support the Nazi State, lead by Heideggar I believe. Conveniently missing from their N interpretations where such lines as:-paraph: "Beware the words of the great liar; the one that says I, the state, am the people. Such a monster destroys peoples." When you read the few written treatises of fascism--such as Mussolini, you see that the theory behind facism is exactly that which Nietzsche condemns here.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Just for Matt

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 07, 2010, 19:23 (5230 days ago) @ xeno6696


> I've found that in every instance where I engaged such posts on N, that the belief of what N stands for is more powerful than the truth for far too many.
> 
> Historically, this is also due to the fact that the Reich had a department deliberately created to interpret N to support the Nazi State, lead by Heideggar I believe. Conveniently missing from their N interpretations where such lines as:
> 
> paraph: "Beware the words of the great liar; the one that says I, the state, am the people. Such a monster destroys peoples." When you read the few written treatises of fascism--such as Mussolini, you see that the theory behind facism is exactly that which Nietzsche condemns here.-I'm sure there is much to learn from him, and the above paragraph shows it, but it also is something I already know. There is still great evil in the world, and very evil people, some of whom will always be present.

Just for Matt

by David Turell @, Thursday, January 07, 2010, 19:40 (5230 days ago) @ David Turell

Back to thinking about a computer simulation of the brain. An excellent essay which thinks we cannot do it:-http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527427.100-you-wont-find-consciousness-in-the-brain.html

Just for Matt

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 13:58 (5225 days ago) @ David Turell

Solid state quantum entanglement developed; in computers in the future:-http://www.physorg.com/news182430388.html

Just for Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Friday, January 15, 2010, 01:54 (5223 days ago) @ David Turell

Missed this. Apparently I don't always get emails for new responses. -LOTS of good stuff breaking in quantum computing. Makes me think I should do research... but the money's in infosec... *sigh* The worst part about options is having them...

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Just for Matt

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Saturday, January 23, 2010, 20:36 (5214 days ago) @ David Turell

Back to thinking about a computer simulation of the brain. An excellent essay which thinks we cannot do it:
> 
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527427.100-you-wont-find-consciousness-in-the-b... losing faith in the forum's ability to send me emails--I don't remember being alerted to this article. -It's a very interesting counterpoint, but one that as we attempt to build brains in vats can be leveled against occam's razor. With computers we'll be able to follow the complete flow and lifecycle of information so that we'll be able to know what individual nodes are "thinking about." -While the skeptical view would still be "do we know if THIS is what goes on in the human brain?" Assuming a successful build, it'll have to be subjected to various tests of human intelligence and be able to demonstrate (in my opinion) that it can vary in performance to a similar extent to humans. It'll have to be able to reason from the inexact.

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

Just for Matt

by David Turell @, Thursday, May 27, 2010, 14:55 (5090 days ago) @ David Turell

This is a non-sequitor, but Matt will especially enjoy. It is a good answer for the raving neo-atheists, i.e., Dawkins, Harris, etc.:-http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/05/atheismrsquos-just-so-scenarios

Just for Matt

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Thursday, May 27, 2010, 21:08 (5090 days ago) @ David Turell

This article is a total misrepresentation of atheism. It identifies atheism with nihilism. He says: "The battle is still between nihilism and theism. There is no third option." Absolute drivel.-We don't know what the future is for life or for human beings. We may become extinct quite quickly, or we may evolve into wise and knowledgeable beings that last as long as the universe lasts, or into crazed power-mad transhuman cybermen. The ultimate future is unknown. It's interesting to speculate, as science fiction writers and futurologists do.-The theist idea that we are all part of some preordained plan set down by some Great Fascist in the Sky doesn't appeal to me at all.

--
GPJ

Just for Matt

by dhw, Thursday, May 27, 2010, 23:08 (5090 days ago) @ George Jelliss

GEORGE (referring to an article attacking Neo-Atheism): This article is a total misrepresentation of atheism. It identifies atheism with nihilism. He says: "The battle is still between nihilism and theism. There is no third option." Absolute drivel.-It's not often that I agree with George, so let's make the most of it! One of the myths that theists constantly try to apply to atheists (and agnostics) is that they do not recognize any binding values or moral codes, because they do not believe in any universal authority. Atheists and agnostics live within human society, just as theists do, and they are just as subject not only to the laws of that society but also to its conventions and its values. There are kind-hearted, loving, generous, conscientious atheists with just as much concern for their fellow humans as theists who are kind-hearted, loving etc. Strangely enough, there are also happy atheists and agnostics ... though Pascal ("If man is not made for God, why is he happy only with God?") might have been shocked to hear it. The argument that life is meaningless without God shows complete contempt for the human and humanistic values which many of us embrace. I would, frankly, much prefer to be associated with atheists who care about their fellow humans than with theists who consider it their duty to blow up those fellow humans that don't bow down to their God. There are several battles going on ... e.g. philosophically between atheism and theism, morally between good and bad, socially between individual and society. If nihilism is involved in a battle, it's with humanism, but I'm pleased to say that I know theists and atheists alike who share the values for which humanism stands. -Sorry if the article really was "just for Matt", but I'm sure he won't mind George and me muscling in.

Just for Matt

by David Turell @, Friday, May 28, 2010, 01:11 (5090 days ago) @ dhw


> Sorry if the article really was "just for Matt", but I'm sure he won't mind George and me muscling in.-No 'muscling in'. The 'just for Matt' is because his favorite philosopher is all over the essay. Humanists are wonderful folks. God is not needed for ethical and moral behavior.

Just for Matt

by David Turell @, Thursday, May 27, 2010, 23:15 (5090 days ago) @ George Jelliss


> The theist idea that we are all part of some preordained plan set down by some Great Fascist in the Sky doesn't appeal to me at all.-I'm sure that is true for you, George, although you seem to know so much more about Him than I do. I still feel Matt will enjoy responding to this essay. As for myself, I view the (Great)er Power as a somewhat laissez-faire intelligence, with some hands-on and some simple watchfulness like Frank presented.

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