Evolution theory beyond Darwin (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Sunday, December 27, 2009, 21:46 (5241 days ago)

An interesting discussion featuring Michael Denton, a non-ID'r. It mentions a new book by a French philosopher, Jeasn Staun, which states there has to be much more than the basic theory:-http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2009/12/14/as-darwin-year-ends-some-seek-to-go-beyond-darwin/

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by David Turell @, Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 20:34 (5238 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by unknown, Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 20:41

An interesting discussion featuring Michael Denton, a non-ID'r. It mentions a new book by a French philosopher, Jean Staun, which states there has to be much more than the basic theory:
> 
> http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2009/12/14/as-darwin-year-ends-some-seek-to-go-beyo... article by Koonin states there are so many ways evolution advances, horizontal transfers, epigenetic mechanisms, mehtylation, etc. that a new theory is needed to replace Neo-Darwinism. Genes are not changed by mutation but new complexities appear instead to advance evolution. I remind you of the, as not yet announced, results of the Augsberg conference, that we all should be waiting for.-http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/37/4/1011-The following abstract of an article about the Cambrian Explosion attempts an explanation for the fact that phyla disappeared after the explosion while the survivors keep a rather constant body type; not the tree development Darwinism would predict, but a pruned bush.-http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19472371

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Saturday, January 02, 2010, 20:56 (5235 days ago) @ David Turell

This result that I spotted on the BBC news pages looks interesting
"Lifeless prion proteins are capable of evolution"-http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8435320.stm-Quotes: Scientists have shown for the first time that "lifeless" prion proteins, devoid of all genetic material, can evolve just like higher forms of life. /// ... it's clear that you do not need nucleic acid (DNA or RNA) for the process of evolution.

--
GPJ

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 02, 2010, 23:50 (5235 days ago) @ George Jelliss

This result that I spotted on the BBC news pages looks interesting
> "Lifeless prion proteins are capable of evolution"
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8435320.stm
> 
> Quotes: Scientists have shown for the first time that "lifeless" prion proteins, devoid of all genetic material, can evolve just like higher forms of life. /// ... it's clear that you do not need nucleic acid (DNA or RNA) for the process of evolution.-George, thank you. Fascinating article. It points out, also, that folding a protein in a different way changes its function. I wonder what molecules, or enzymes in the host cells, change the folding or do the prions do it themselves?

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 09, 2010, 16:46 (5228 days ago) @ George Jelliss


> Quotes: Scientists have shown for the first time that "lifeless" prion proteins, devoid of all genetic material, can evolve just like higher forms of life. /// ... it's clear that you do not need nucleic acid (DNA or RNA) for the process of evolution.-Another discussion in this area of origin-of-life. We all must remember Darwin mechanisms do not start until life is present. There are two suggestions discussed:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100108101433.htm

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by David Turell @, Saturday, January 02, 2010, 23:41 (5235 days ago) @ David Turell


> I remind you of the, as not yet announced, results of the Augsberg conference, that we all should be waiting for.-
Sorry for the mis-spelling. The conference was held in Altenberg. Book by Susan Mazur, based on interviews out in Feb:-
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556439245/ref=pd_1ctyhuc__mrairnr_03_03

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by David Turell @, Monday, January 11, 2010, 18:58 (5226 days ago) @ David Turell

Here is another theory and criticism of Darwinism, filling the gaps between fossils, without any knowledge of what organisms might have been there, if at all. 'Punctuated equilibrium' was Gould's favorite way of explaining some of this, and the recent find of tetrapods in Poland 18 million years before the four-legged fish shows how Darwinism tends to invent stories for the gaps in its explanations. There are 'walking bass' in Florida even now.-Jan 6, 2010-"Why Not Accept the Fossil Record at Face Value Instead of Imposing a Theory on it?
Barry Arrington (A Turell note: he is an IDer)
In a comment to a prior post Johhnnyb makes the following excellent points:
One thing which I think ID can contribute to any historical aspect of earth history is shaving off hypothetical creatures. While there are certainly many creatures which haven't yet been found, and I'm sure many of these creatures include chimeras of existing features in existing creatures, there is no reason to believe that there must be creatures where none have been found or evidenced. Darwinism has a bad habit of perpetually adding dashed lines in-between creatures for where it expects to find relationships. Instead, ID says that, perhap we can just take the fossil record as we find it. Perhaps what we need to be doing is measuring, say, the average known time fossils go missing from the fossil record, and use that plus statistical completeness estimates to estimate the error bounds of the fossil record. Instead, Darwinists will substitute a narration of what they think happened in the past to substitute for 99% of earth history, rather than simply looking at what's there.
 Here's a simple example ... extinction estimates. Darwinists will say that 99.99% of species that have ever lived have gone extinct. Well, that's actually a bunch of B.S. There are roughly 250,000 species that have been identified in the fossil record, and well over 1,000,000 species that exist today. Taken at face value, even if every species in the fossil record has gone extinct (which they haven't), that means that 80% of species that ever existed ARE STILL ALIVE. That's quite a stretch. So where do Darwinists get their number? By assuming that innumerable species existed in the transitional spaces. Why? Because they _must_ have existed there for their theory to be true.
 ID says that Darwinism is simply an unnecessary hypothesis. We should take the fossil record as it comes to us, measure its completeness on its own terms, and determine its limits as we can determine apart from Darwinism. After doing so, we might find certain features of the fossil record to be consistent with Darwinism, or we might not. The problem is that the Darwinists distort what they see to fit into their picture of Darwinism. There are also a set of Silurian trackways which were thought to be arthropods...why? Because it was thought that tetrapods hadn't existed yet. Basically, Darwinism has been forcing the way in which we view the fossil record and earth history. When it is in conflict with the data, over and over again, the data gets modified to fit with Darwinism. ID makes a clean break with the Darwinistic picture, and would allow us to take the animal distributions within the fossil record much more on its own terms."-The writer states that there are one million plus species alive today. I've read five million. Now I wonder what is correct?

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Monday, January 11, 2010, 21:41 (5226 days ago) @ David Turell

As may be expected there were responses to this news on RDNet and Pharyngula-Two articles on the first land walkers:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4880-P Z Myers' response to Discovery Institute
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/01/casey_luskin_embarrasses_himse.php

--
GPJ

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by David Turell @, Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 00:51 (5226 days ago) @ George Jelliss

As may be expected there were responses to this news on RDNet and Pharyngula
> 
> Two articles on the first land walkers:
> http://richarddawkins.net/articles/4880
> 
> P Z Myers' response to Discovery Institute
> http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/01/casey_luskin_embarrasses_himse.php-All of this is simply an example fo convergence, the theory favored by Simon Conway Morris.

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by dhw, Sunday, February 07, 2010, 19:50 (5199 days ago) @ David Turell

Saturday's Guardian carries a review by Mary Midgley of What Darwin Got Wrong, by Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piattelli Palmarini: -www.mywire.com/a/GuardianUnlimitedUK/Darwin-Got-Wrong-Book-review/15983015/?extId=10029 -A few quotes to tickle your tastebuds:-"Charles Darwin complained quite crossly in his autobiography that, despite many denials, people still kept saying he thought natural selection was the sole cause of evolutionary development."-"He saw that the doctrine itself did not make sense. No filter, however, powerful, can be the only cause of what flows out of it. Questions about what comes into that filter have to be just as important."-Mary Midgley summarizes various complex inheritance mechanisms which Darwin would not have known about and which the authors explain in detail. The new book thus "strikes an outsider as an overdue and valuable onslaught on Neo-Darwinist simplicities." She singles out Jacques Monod and Richard Dawkins as being largely responsible for keeping "dogmatic 'Darwinism' ... largely independent of its founder ... afloat for so long." -Incidentally, her one criticism of the new book is its title, which she finds too personal. "This isn't just a point about Darwin; it's a point about the nature of life." I haven't read the book, but misrepresentations of Darwin are all too common, as we've noted before on this forum (see the thread "Misrepresenting Darwin"). If he could read what so-called Darwinists attribute to him nowadays, he would be even more cross than he was in his autobiography. (And she says that too!)

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 09, 2010, 14:19 (5197 days ago) @ dhw

Saturday's Guardian carries a review by Mary Midgley of What Darwin Got Wrong, by Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piattelli Palmarini: 
> 
> www.mywire.com/a/GuardianUnlimitedUK/Darwin-Got-Wrong-Book-review/15983015/?extId=10029 -> 
> "Charles Darwin complained quite crossly in his autobiography that, despite many denials, people still kept saying he thought natural selection was the sole cause of evolutionary development."
> 
> "He saw that the doctrine itself did not make sense. No filter, however, powerful, can be the only cause of what flows out of it. Questions about what comes into that filter have to be just as important."-
But as I read about Darwin, I find that Huxley warned that saltation should be considered in the theory. Darwin did not and excused the absence of its consideration on gaps in the fossil record, which would give the appearance of saltation. Mechanisms described by J. Shapiro will preduce novel advances. Interesting abstract:-http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19224263

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by dhw, Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 13:50 (5196 days ago) @ David Turell

I quoted Mary Midgley's review of What Darwin Got Wrong.-"Charles Darwin complained quite crossly in his autobiography that, despite many denials, people still kept saying he thought natural selection was the sole cause of evolutionary development."-"He saw that the doctrine itself did not make sense. No filter, however, powerful, can be the only cause of what flows out of it. Questions about what comes into that filter have to be just as important."-DAVID: But as I read about Darwin, I find that Huxley warned that saltation should be considered in the theory. Darwin did not and excused the absence of its consideration on gaps in the fossil record, which would give the appearance of saltation.-Many thanks for the website reference on "hopeful monsters", and indeed for all the other enlightening pieces on the latest discoveries. You're quite right. Darwin adheres to the canon 'Natura non facit saltum' and says explicitly that Natural Selection "can never take a leap, but must advance by short and slow steps" (Origin, under 'Difficulties on Theory', my edition p. 219).-Darwin himself was the first to admit that what he was proposing was only a theory, and there were many difficulties. It sounds as if the new book fills in a lot of the gaps concerning what comes into the "filter", though I don't know if it deals with saltation. The point that Mary Midgley makes, and which I loudly applaud, is that a lot of the attacks on Darwin are misrepresentations ... the one mentioned here being the general equation of Evolution with Natural Selection, as if there were no other driving force (though I think Darwin himself was partly to blame for this, by calling his work The Origin of Species By Means of Natural Selection). Another misrepresentation lies in the fact that both theists and atheists take Darwinism to be virtually synonymous with atheism, although Darwin repeatedly emphasized that his theory was not anti-religious, and he himself was an agnostic.-Under "Evolutionary Catechism" (Jan 12 at 17.45), I tried to split the theory up into various sections. I got the impression that all those who responded still accepted the basic premises. It's the details that are under scrutiny, which include saltation and the mechanisms of heredity, and I'm sure that if Darwin had known then what we know now, his theory would have undergone plenty of modifications. Perhaps James A. Shapiro is the right man to update it, since he doesn't seem to let any personal agenda distort the science.

Evolution theory beyond Darwin

by David Turell @, Tuesday, December 21, 2010, 00:33 (4883 days ago) @ David Turell

An interesting discussion featuring Michael Denton, a non-ID'r. It mentions a new book by a French philosopher, Jean Staun, which states there has to be much more than the basic theory:
> > 
> > http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2009/12/14/as-darwin-year-ends-some-seek-to-go-beyo... 
> This article by Koonin states there are so many ways evolution advances, horizontal transfers, epigenetic mechanisms, mehtylation, etc. that a new theory is needed to replace Neo-Darwinism. Genes are not changed by mutation but new complexities appear instead to advance evolution. I remind you of the, as not yet announced, results of the Augsberg conference, that we all should be waiting for.-There is still much discussion of where Neo-Darwinism is headed. This article mentions primarily those scientists who think that not much transformation is necessary for the Neo-D, which is 70 years old.-http://www.the-scientist.com/2010/1/1/24/1/

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