Does it matter if God exists? (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Saturday, March 26, 2016, 17:50 (2945 days ago)

A fascinating essay which looks primarily at the meaning of the debate:-https://aeon.co/opinions/how-much-does-it-matter-whether-god-exists?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=3784398b57-Saturday_newsletter_26_March_20163_24_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-3784398b57-68942561-"Whether such a thing as God exists is one of those questions that we use to mark our identities, choose our friends, and divide our families. But there are also moments when the question starts to seem suspect, or only partly useful. Once, backstage before a sold-out debate at the University of Notre Dame between Craig and Sam Harris, Dawkins's fellow New Atheist, I heard an elderly Catholic theologian approach Harris and spit out: ‘I agree with you more than I do with that guy!'-***-"I became fascinated with the question of God as I tried to wrap my head around it for myself. I travelled around the world to meet God debaters, and studied the historical thinkers from whom their arguments derive. I found that I wasn't alone in doubting the pertinence of the question.-"The thinkers who crafted the classic proofs for the existence of God - from Aristotle to Thomas Aquinas, for instance - were writing to audiences for whom the existence of divine beings was uncontroversial. The purposes of these proofs had more to do with contentions about what we mean by God, and how far into such matters human reason can really take us.-"Consider, for instance, Anselm of Canterbury, an 11th-century monk who devised his proof in a fit of early morning ecstasy. His claim, which has been debated strenuously from its first publication until now, was that the very concept of God contained in it the proof of God's existence - which, to Anselm, was a testament to God's omnipresence and love. For centuries, his fiercest critics objected not to Anselm's God, but to his reasoning. Centuries later, the Jewish apostate Baruch Spinoza employed a very similar argument in 17th-century Holland: he took the reasoning but mostly put aside the God.-"Today, Spinoza stands as a progenitor of the modern, scientific worldview. The atheist philosopher and novelist Rebecca Newberger Goldstein considers him ‘the renegade Jew who gave us modernity'. Yet at the centre of his system is a proof for God, one very much akin to that of the Christian monk Anselm. Where Anselm saw the Christian God, Spinoza saw the totality of the universe. He insisted that this was indeed God, that he was not an atheist. In his devotion to reason, Spinoza became famous for his piety;-"Spinoza and Anselm both passionately believed in God, and adopted a similar way of thinking; the difference was in the kind of God they had in mind.-***-" When religious communities reject scientific theories for bad reasons, it can seem easier to blame the fact that they believe in God, rather than to notice that other believers might accept the same theories for good reasons. Good ideas and bad ideas, good actions and bad actions - they're all on either side of the God divide.-***-"I believe in God, but I often find more common cause with those who say they don't than those who say they do. I've come to care less whether anyone says they believe in God or not, and to care more about what they mean by that, and what they do about it."-Comment: Read it all. I've skipped only a little. I'm with Spinoza, the wonders of the universe reveal a greater power, but my description of that power may be wrong. So what!

Does it matter if God exists?

by dhw, Sunday, March 27, 2016, 14:53 (2944 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: A fascinating essay which looks primarily at the meaning of the debate:-https://aeon.co/opinions/how-much-does-it-matter-whether-god-exists?utm_source=Aeon+New...-QUOTE: "I believe in God, but I often find more common cause with those who say they don't than those who say they do. I've come to care less whether anyone says they believe in God or not, and to care more about what they mean by that, and what they do about it."
David's comment: Read it all. I've skipped only a little. I'm with Spinoza, the wonders of the universe reveal a greater power, but my description of that power may be wrong. So what!-A fascinating subject, which leads to all sorts of questions. The first for me has to be: Does anything matter? And the answer for me is: If it matters to you, it matters. As with “knowledge”, ultimately it hinges on subjectivity. Back to solipsism! And so each of us can only explain why something matters to him/her. Since I'm the one who started this forum, perhaps I should explain why the subject of God's existence does matter to me.-I think curiosity is integral to human nature, and in common with countless billions of others throughout the history of homo sapiens, if there is a mystery, I want to know the solution. And the biggest mystery of all is how we got here. The scientific approach brings forth endless discoveries as we examine the physical components of life, but none of them provide an explanation for our presence or our consciousness. The philosophical approach provides explanations ranging from sheer luck to some super intelligence that designed us, but there is no evidence beyond that of sheer conjecture - our subjective joining of the dots to form the pattern. For me, each pattern then creates its own set of dots, and these too can be joined into new, subjectively drawn patterns. So here are some patterns, though the list could stretch over many pages:-If God exists (I'll include gods under God - but plural gods are another pattern one can draw), he/she/it must have had a reason for creating life. What is his (‘his' for convenience) purpose? What is his nature? Do my consciousness and my nature reflect his? Is this life the only reality? I then look at the world, and try to find clues. Do its ambiguities reflect his own - the mixture of good and bad, beautiful and ugly? What have other people got to say about his purpose, his nature? What experiences have other people had in relation to realities that may or may not lie beyond the one I know? And so we delve into all the patterns that emerge from the concept of God…-If God does not exist, does that mean we are the product of chance and there is nothing but the material world as we know it? This would certainly be the simplest pattern - we happen to be here, let's make the most of it (which I think we should do anyway, whether God exists or not, though our “most-making” should never be at the expense of others), because tomorrow we die and there's an end to it. But is it that simple? We still have no explanation for consciousness, or for many so-called psychic experiences, and there are schools of thought that exclude God but reject the purely materialist scenario, even going so far as to propose that life does not end with death (for example, certain forms of Buddhism). My ignorance makes it impossible for me to assume that the reality I know is the only form of reality. Just as I can't conceive of a boundary to the universe (what lies beyond the boundary?) or a beginning of time (what was there before the beginning?), I can't move outside the confines of my own reality, and when I learn about other people's realities, I have no way of knowing whether those correspond to any kind of objective truth. And so even without a God, I can't be satisfied with the simplest of all patterns.-When I was very young, I took it for granted that God existed (I was brought up as a Jew), but very early on began to have grave concerns about his nature, as revealed in the savagery of the Old Testament. On reaching puberty, I began to question everything - as teenagers often do! - but the issues were disturbing. I am pleased to report that when I reached adulthood, and realized that there were no conclusive answers to any of the “big” questions, I no longer found them disturbing. The bad and the ugly are still distressing in themselves, but the good and the beautiful are a source of endless wonderment and pleasure, whether God exists or not. My enjoyment of life and my calm acceptance of the insolubility of the mysteries don't stop me from asking the same old questions - as you may have noticed! - and whether God exists or not still matters to me. But that is because of my curiosity and not because of my childhood fears. -
My thanks to David for raising a subject which makes us take a good look at ourselves. It would be interesting to get other responses to the question.

Does it matter if God exists?

by David Turell @, Sunday, March 27, 2016, 15:20 (2944 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw:My thanks to David for raising a subject which makes us take a good look at ourselves. It would be interesting to get other responses to the question.-I've given one. My thanks to you for offering a venue which allows me an opportunity to debate a subject about which I feel strongly, despite the ultimate doubt.

Does it matter if God exists?

by dhw, Monday, March 28, 2016, 13:22 (2943 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: Another essay with a similar point of view:-http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/god-is-a-question-not-an-answer/?emc=ed...-QUOTE: "We can and should expand that dialogue to include atheists and agnostics, to recognize our common humanity and to stop seeing one another as enemy combatants in a spiritual or intellectual war. Rather than seeking the security of an answer, perhaps we should collectively celebrate the uncertainty of the question.
"This is not to say that we should cease attempts to convince others of our views. Far from it. We should try to unsettle others as we remain open to being unsettled ourselves. In a spirit of tolerance and intellectual humility, we should see ourselves as partners in a continuing conversation, addressing an enduring question."-I would like to think that this forum epitomizes the spirit advocated by the author, and although many contributors have come and gone, there has never been any intention to alienate. I too see all of us as partners and not as combatants. -dhw: My thanks to David for raising a subject which makes us take a good look at ourselves. It would be interesting to get other responses to the question.-DAVID: I've given one. My thanks to you for offering a venue which allows me an opportunity to debate a subject about which I feel strongly, despite the ultimate doubt.-I am very happy that the forum has been so productive, though in all honesty it would almost certainly have faded away without the huge range of subject matter and research that you have brought to it. Even if my agnostic fence may sometimes seem to you more like a brick wall, the discussions are important to me. Yep, they matter!

Does it matter if God exists?

by David Turell @, Monday, March 28, 2016, 15:31 (2943 days ago) @ dhw


> dhw: I am very happy that the forum has been so productive, though in all honesty it would almost certainly have faded away without the huge range of subject matter and research that you have brought to it. Even if my agnostic fence may sometimes seem to you more like a brick wall, the discussions are important to me. Yep, they matter! - Hear, hear. we shall trudge on.

Does it matter if God exists?

by David Turell @, Sunday, March 27, 2016, 15:14 (2944 days ago) @ David Turell

Another essay with a similar point of view:-http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/god-is-a-question-not-an-answer/?emc=edit_th_20160327&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=60788861&_r=0-"Any honest atheist must admit that he has his doubts, that occasionally he thinks he might be wrong, that there could be a God after all — if not the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition, then a God of some kind....Dwelling in a state of doubt, uncertainty and openness about the existence of God marks an honest approach to the question.-"There is no easy answer. Indeed, the question may be fundamentally unanswerable. Still, there are potentially unpleasant consequences that can arise from decisions or conclusions, and one must take responsibility for them.-"Anyone who does not occasionally worry that he may be a fraud almost certainly is. Nor does the worry absolve one from the charge; one may still be a fraud, just one who rightly worries about it on occasion. Likewise, anyone who does not occasionally worry that she is wrong about the existence or nonexistence of God most likely has a fraudulent belief. Worry can make the belief or unbelief genuine, but it cannot make it correct.-"People who claim certainty about God worry me, both those who believe and those who don't believe. They do not really listen to the other side of conversations, and they are too ready to impose their views on others. It is impossible to be certain about God.-***-"Bertrand Russell was once asked what he would say to God if it turned out there was one and he met him at judgment. Russell's reply: “You gave us insufficient evidence.” Even believers can appreciate Russell's response.God does not make it easy. God, if he exists, is “deus absconditus,” the hidden God. He does not show himself unambiguously to all people, and people disagree about his existence. We should all feel and express humility in the face of the question even if we think the odds are tilted heavily in favor of a particular answer. Indeed, the open-minded search for truth can unite believers and nonbelievers.-***-"This proposal should be taken in the other direction as well: There should be no dogmatic belief. The believer should concede that she does not know with certainty that God exists. There is no faith without doubt. The Trappist monk Thomas Merton wrote that faith “is a decision, a judgment that is fully and deliberately taken in the light of a truth that cannot be proven — it is not merely the acceptance of a decision that has been made by somebody else.”-***- "We can and should expand that dialogue to include atheists and agnostics, to recognize our common humanity and to stop seeing one another as enemy combatants in a spiritual or intellectual war. Rather than seeking the security of an answer, perhaps we should collectively celebrate the uncertainty of the question.-"This is not to say that we should cease attempts to convince others of our views. Far from it. We should try to unsettle others as we remain open to being unsettled ourselves. In a spirit of tolerance and intellectual humility, we should see ourselves as partners in a continuing conversation, addressing an enduring question."-Comment: Read it all. I admit I doubt, but I've picked a logical side for me. Let's keep debating, for we will never know the answer by solid evidence alone. God wants it that way as Bertrand Russell notes.

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