The Universe as a Tragedy... (The nature of a \'Creator\')

by xeno6696 @, Sonoran Desert, Thursday, July 30, 2009, 05:04 (5356 days ago)

Different for me, I know but I won't be talking too much about logic here. This is a shot to the humanities... - Why is it that virtually all creator-gods are benevolent in nature? I've spent the greater part of my off-time the past two years studying both "pagan" and Abrahamic mythologies, for a novel. The most striking difference in religions comes from the Mesopotamians. - "Let her create primeval man
	So that he may bear the yoke;
	So that he may bear the work, the work of Ellil,
	Let man bear the load of the gods!" 
 --Ea, from the Akkadian epic, "Atra-hasis" - Man to the Sumerians, was a slave to the gods. How would we be able to bear the load of gods? - In the broader scope of the question, why would we assume that a being as powerful as God would want anything to do with us? To the Greeks, we were amusement. To Jehovah, we were spoiled children. (Not sure which is worse...) - Isn't it possible that God created all of this as art? Aesthetics? No real reason or purpose but because he can? - But it doesn't have to be a craft of love. I write music too, but my music is where I channel all of my negative energy, it's my catharsis. What if god created this universe from anguish instead? I admit I make the mistake of my nymsake, but why would we think the universe would be made as an act of love? All of the best art and music seems to come from pain. Sophocles. Caravaggio. Dostoevsky. Pascal. Wagner. Beethoven. Nietzsche. Poe. Maya Angelou. Ann Rice. All tortured souls. All considered to be a height, a peak in human creativity. - Why wouldn't we consider our world also created from such pain?

--
\"Why is it, Master, that ascetics fight with ascetics?\"

\"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views, holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics.\"

The Universe as a Tragedy...

by dhw, Saturday, August 01, 2009, 11:56 (5353 days ago) @ xeno6696

Matt has asked a string of questions:
1) Why is it that virtually all creator-gods are benevolent?
2) Why would we assume that a being as powerful as God would want anything to do with us?
3) Isn't it possible that God created all of this as art? Aesthetics? No real reason but because he can?
4) Why would we think the universe would be made as an act of love? 
5) What if God created this universe from anguish? - We would need a committed believer to answer 1) and 4), but it's fun to speculate, so I'll join in the game. - At the risk of repetition, since a lot of this is in the "brief guide" and also came into exchanges with Mark (a reverend), I would start with the fact that creations often reflect aspects of the creator. One of the problems I have with the concept of heaven is what the hell (joke) are people going to do for the rest of time? Well, if God's stuck with himself for all time, he's got the same problem. So my best bet for motive would be boredom. - Having decided to create life, he then messes around with different forms, experimenting (maybe on other planets too), until eventually he comes up with us. It obviously took him quite a while to figure out how to do it, but then it's taking us quite a while to figure out how he did it, so it's tit for tat. From then on, we tit for tat all the way, which explains the whole mishmash of good and bad, love and hate, joy and pain. He's incorporated all these things into the system (which reflects his own make-up), and he gets a kick out of watching the interplay. - He is, of course, incredibly, dazzlingly, mind-blowingly brilliant. Quite apart from his scientific genius, the overall plan is masterly. Because the fact is, we can't have the good, the love, the joy without the bad, the hate, the pain. You say, Matt, that "all the best art and music seems to come from pain." Many of humanity's greatest and noblest achievements have come as a response to suffering. Without the contrast, life would be dull not just for him but also for us. So he knows exactly what he's doing. - In answer to question 2), then, he's interested in us because we're his creations. Christians often draw the comparison with parenthood. You can draw it with anything you create. You want to know what happens to it. And if it's something worth loving, you love it. We've just had a visit from our one-year-old grandson (congratulations, BBella, I know just how you feel), and the pleasure and love that we have experienced are almost indescribable. So although humans can't conceive how God could possibly keep track of all the billions and billions of his creations, he might be the multiest of multi-taskers and have his own means of watching. And he might well hate some of us and love others. Fortunately, we can assume that since we have a sense of humour, he's got one as well, and you can imagine him laughing his head off at the clever human minds which pooh-pooh the idea of design and earnestly believe that chance dunnit. On the other hand, I doubt if he's laughing at the maniacs who slaughter people on his behalf. On a third hand (which would be very useful, sir, if you ever rethink the design), he might not care two hoots, so long as we keep entertaining him. - The universe as a tragedy? Yes, indeed. And also as a comedy, a love story, a mystery, an adventure, a horror movie, science fiction, and whatever else we humans care to make of it. The universe is wonderful and terrible. But ... let me creep back into my agnostic shell ... whether it was made or just evolved that way, who knows?

The Universe as a Tragedy...

by BBella @, Saturday, August 01, 2009, 21:06 (5353 days ago) @ dhw

At the risk of repetition, since a lot of this is in the "brief guide" and also came into exchanges with Mark (a reverend), I would start with the fact that creations often reflect aspects of the creator. - Playing along....and sometimes, just as in birthing, creation could be aspects of (made up of) the creator, literally. - >One of the problems I have with the concept of heaven is what the hell (joke) are people going to do for the rest of time? - The concept of heaven and hell could be the deepest darkness and highest lightness man can go before being reassimilated back into the creator. - >Well, if God's stuck with himself for all time, he's got the same problem. So my best bet for motive would be boredom. - Boredom as we know is one more aspect of being...so, a smart God would have figured out how to be in more places than one at a time (being everywhere at all times) so bypassing being bored for too long. - 
> Having decided to create life, - First off, if there is a creator, there is already life (being), regardless what form the life is...and that life could have always been.
 
>he then messes around with different forms, experimenting (maybe on other planets too), until eventually he comes up with us. - Maybe this creator could also be a living being that evolves itself (so is the other planets at this time as well as us). Who is to say that a creator cannot grow in variety of shapes and sizes, having the ability to shapeshift yet also having a 'center' within all that IS that 'knows' it/himself. If one thing is possible then so is the other...again, just playing along with the what if's. - >It obviously took him quite a while to figure out how to do it, but then it's taking us quite a while to figure out how he did it, so it's tit for tat. From then on, we tit for tat all the way, which explains the whole mishmash of good and bad, love and hate, joy and pain. He's incorporated all these things into the system (which reflects his own make-up), and he gets a kick out of watching the interplay. - If all a creator did (putting myself in a creators place) was "watch" the whole show he creates...I imagine that would get very bored very quick. Nothing, I personally, if I had the ability, could create could give me enough entertainment long enough to keep me from being bored...and I'm just a human. But, if I had the ability to be everywhere at all times, I would probably want to experience all things...knowing it all comes out in the wash eventually. And not only that, I then would understand how certain things would have to happen to spur growth, not only in material evolution but in the conscious mind of man.
 
> He is, of course, incredibly, dazzlingly, mind-blowingly brilliant. Quite apart from his scientific genius, the overall plan is masterly. Because the fact is, we can't have the good, the love, the joy without the bad, the hate, the pain. You say, Matt, that "all the best art and music seems to come from pain." Many of humanity's greatest and noblest achievements have come as a response to suffering. Without the contrast, life would be dull not just for him but also for us. So he knows exactly what he's doing. - I agree that all the good would not even be known as good if there weren't something bad to compare it to. Like in the story of the garden of eden...boredom sets in fast when it comes to having it all. And this is another reason that I can see that if a creator God was so "mind-blowingly brilliant" he could also be the creation experiment itself as well as the creator of it. Therefore bypassing static boredom almost all together but in very tiny increments. 
 
> In answer to question 2), then, he's interested in us because we're his creations. - Or even better, because we are him. - >Christians often draw the comparison with parenthood. You can draw it with anything you create. You want to know what happens to it. And if it's something worth loving, you love it. - And, it also then makes sense that if you love your creation so much you could also want to be able to say to your creation I didnt just watch you experience I experienced it too so I know what you are going thru because I am you. We as good parents wouldn't want our children to go thru anything that we ourselves weren't willing to go thru with them if possible...for a creator God that is his creation this then would be possible. Here the creator could not only say, when it is all said and done (afterlife if you will), I was not only with you every step of the way, I am you. That seems, in a big picture kind of way, more acceptable (thru my eyes anyway) if there truly is a creator. - 
continued....

The Universe as a Tragedy...

by BBella @, Saturday, August 01, 2009, 21:07 (5353 days ago) @ dhw

We've just had a visit from our one-year-old grandson (congratulations, BBella, I know just how you feel), and the pleasure and love that we have experienced are almost indescribable. So although humans can't conceive how God could possibly keep track of all the billions and billions of his creations, he might be the multiest of multi-taskers and have his own means of watching. - Yes, and if he is such a multi-tasker, probably could just as well have his means of watching thru each and everyone of all of creations eyes...even if there are no eyes...there are other senses....some of which we have only begun to comprehend. Thanks for the congrats...these wee ones bring out of us, especially when they came from us, a special spark like no other. Maybe it's that creator aspect of ourselves that feels the remembrance of just who we are. - 
>And he might well hate some of us and love others. Fortunately, we can assume that since we have a sense of humour, he's got one as well, and you can imagine him laughing his head off at the clever human minds which pooh-pooh the idea of design and earnestly believe that chance dunnit. On the other hand, I doubt if he's laughing at the maniacs who slaughter people on his behalf. On a third hand (which would be very useful, sir, if you ever rethink the design), he might not care two hoots, so long as we keep entertaining him. - Sometimes people have to experience hell as an individual, a society or family, etc, in order to evolve the incoming. We are all a product of the whole.
 
> 
> The universe as a tragedy? Yes, indeed. And also as a comedy, a love story, a mystery, an adventure, a horror movie, science fiction, and whatever else we humans care to make of it. The universe is wonderful and terrible. But ... let me creep back into my agnostic shell ... whether it was made or just evolved that way, who knows? - Maybe it's both.

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