Aspects of Evolution (Evolution)

by dhw, Saturday, February 28, 2009, 12:41 (5545 days ago)

David has drawn our attention (Evolution, 27 February at 19.48) to an article from Christian Today that attacks Darwin for his racism. I notice that the article makes no mention of Darwin's passionate opposition to slavery (see Darwin's Sacred Cause by Adrian Desmond and James A. Moore), which sits oddly with racism, but in any case the attack is totally irrelevant to the theory of evolution. So too are the actions that, for instance, the Nazis may have based on the theory. One might just as well argue that the Crusades and the Inquisition were the fault of Jesus Christ. - May I suggest that we concentrate on the theory itself ... as David has done with a succession of relevant website references ... but pursue a slightly more differentiated approach. It seems to me that one can no longer talk of evolution as a single theory, since there are so many aspects that require separate analysis (and Darwin himself divided the theory up into its component parts). Bearing in mind John Clinch's apt reminder that "science deals with likelihoods and probabilities and is constantly being revised" (one of the rare points on which John and I agree!) maybe we could pinpoint those areas now considered to be factual, hypothetical, or doubtful. You may well ask: "considered by whom?" but that will also be part of the differentiation. - 1) Life evolved from "a few forms" or one (Darwin).
2) Humans evolved long after many other species.
3) Random mutations create primitive*** new organs. 
4) Natural selection leads over time to simple organs becoming complex.
5) Natural selection leads over time to new species.
6) The fossil record so far confirms/does not confirm the theory. 
7) Whatever I've left out (e.g. I would appreciate guidance on the current status of Lamarckism). - *** ("If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down" (Darwin).)

Aspects of Evolution

by David Turell @, Saturday, February 28, 2009, 13:41 (5545 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Saturday, February 28, 2009, 13:50

1) Life evolved from "a few forms" or one (Darwin).
> 2) Humans evolved long after many other species.
> 3) Random mutations create primitive*** new organs. 
> 4) Natural selection leads over time to simple organs becoming complex.
> 5) Natural selection leads over time to new species.
> 6) The fossil record so far confirms/does not confirm the theory. 
> 7) Whatever I've left out (e.g. I would appreciate guidance on the current status of Lamarckism).
> 
> *** ("If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down" (Darwin).) - 1) On Feb. 23rd I posted a DNA finding that suggested multiple starting point for life, a set of bushes rather than a tree - 2) True - 3) Very debatable. - 4) Not proven. Taken by Darwinists on faith - 5)See 4 - 6) No greater scientist than Stephan Jay Gould said it was the 'greatest kept secret of paleontology" that it did not confirm. - 7) Lamarkism is now referred to as epigenetic forces, influences, effects. No question organisms have the ability to push genetic change rapidly if challenged. Area of research started almost 20 years ago with Reznick's guppies. Google him and see the story. - The famous Darwin Quote is the key to much of the debate. But so is another issue. Did life come from outer space. Are there weird life forms that do not conform to our life patterns? Paul Davies raised the questions recently: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090214162626.htm

Aspects of Evolution

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 11:44 (5544 days ago) @ dhw
edited by unknown, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 11:52

1) Life evolved from "a few forms" or one (Darwin).
2) Humans evolved long after many other species.
3) Random mutations create primitive*** new organs. 
4) Natural selection leads over time to simple organs becoming complex.
5) Natural selection leads over time to new species.
6) The fossil record so far confirms/does not confirm the theory. 
7) Whatever I've left out (e.g. I would appreciate guidance on the current status of Lamarckism). - I'm not a biologist. For authoritative views on these issues I refer you to your bete noir, the greatest living evolutionist, Richard Dawkins. - In regard to point 3) I think the use of the word "organs" is misleading. For instance would a primitive light-sensitive spot, a precursor of an eye, properly be called an "organ"? It's actual use to guide the behaviour of the creature might come long after its first appearance as a mutation. Organ suggests something with reasonably complex "organ"-isation and serving a definite function. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_(anatomy) - In regard to point 6) insofar as inductive evidence can "confirm" something, the fossil evidence confirms evolution. The philosophers of epistemology, since Popper, however tell us that "falsification" is more important than "confirmation". Haldane pointed out that evolution would be falsified by the discovery of "fossil rabbits in the precambrian": - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_rabbits_in_the_precambrian - and similar anachronisms: - http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Mansion/6172/flintpics/fredcrane.gif - such as human fossils with dinosaurs!

--
GPJ

Aspects of Evolution

by dhw, Monday, March 02, 2009, 11:58 (5543 days ago) @ George Jelliss

George: I am not a biologist. For authoritative views on these issues I refer you to your bete noir, the greatest living evolutionist, Richard Dawkins. - Before I reply to this, let me clarify my overall position. The astonishing beauty and appalling cruelty of our world appear to me to occur randomly, and I have no personal feeling that there is some conscious power out there watching over us (apart from our ever more intrusive bureaucracy). This is not a problem for me. What is a problem is a string of unanswered questions, foremost among which are those relating to the almost unimaginable complexities of life, and the theory that they all came about originally by chance. - And so to George's post. I am not a biologist either, but that does not mean that I cannot ask questions, or that I cannot dispute the subjective and often glib conclusions that Dawkins draws from his scientific studies. (He is only a "bête noire" in so far as I am opposed to all those who are so sure of their beliefs that they deride other people's.) Calling him the greatest living evolutionist does not explain why random mutations create hitherto non-existent wonders such as sensitivity to light, sound, taste, touch, smell, thought, memory, emotion etc. etc.; or, to go back further, how a random combination can bring inanimate matter to life while at the same time endowing it with the ability to reproduce itself, to adapt itself to different environments, and potentially to produce all the above innovations. - You have asked if a light-sensitive spot (Darwin calls it a nerve) can be called an organ. I don't think it matters. There are two questions that are more important for me: 1) Darwin wrote: "How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated" (Difficulties on Theory). In the wider context, both are of the utmost concern to me. 2) Bearing in mind that the very concept of sight had never existed, why and how should a light-sensitive nerve in the course of time, through new generations of individual, unthinking, uninventive organisms that inherit it, fashion itself into this brand new complex faculty? And the same question applies to all the other faculties and organs. It happened. The faculties and organs are there. And we know that a few genetic twists and turns will produce these extraordinary changes. But don't ask me to accept on trust that the original genes and the creative twists and turns are simply a matter of chance plus "natural laws". That requires a faith every bit as blind as faith in "God". - As for the philosophers of epistemology telling us that "falsification" is more important than "confirmation", theists can use precisely the same argument and will be ridiculed for it.

Aspects of Evolution

by David Turell @, Sunday, March 01, 2009, 14:20 (5544 days ago) @ dhw

*** ("If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down" (Darwin).) - This is certainly the heart of the Darwin discussion. I was lead to George's disdained website "Uncommon Descent" because of my own independent reasoning. I had adopted an intelligent design theory before I found those folks. I do not support their Christian agenda with my Jewish background, but they make interesting observations that are not mainstream, but they are thoughtful, and horrors (!), they may be right. My own epistemologic philosophy follows Kuhn as well as Popper. As I have described in past posts I have treated patients with 'unaproved' therapies years ago, successfully, because they were reasonably correct approaches to helping human health. Later my methods became approved. One's own reason should always take precedent over 'mob conclusions.'
With that 'mea culpa' in place please look at this disucssion of monarch butterflies migration of 2,500 miles twice a year from northwest US and Canada to a 60 mile square area in the Sierra Madre mountains of Mexico. They often stop at our place in Texas. We love to see them. The guidance mechanism is biochemical and complicated as elucidated so far. The arguments presented in the article point out the 'wishful thinking' explanations of Darwinist scientists of the gaps in knowledge by assuming how those gaps 'must' be filled to fit a Darwin Theory. Science is not built on expectation but the establishment of fact. Facts occasionally change underlying paradigms. (Kuhn). See the March 1st entry: http://www.uncommondescent.com/

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