Barren Mars (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Wednesday, March 13, 2013, 15:04 (4063 days ago)

Some of the chemicl needs for life were on Mars, but there is no trace of it. The Earth has many more of the properties needed. The following article sounds disappointed:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130312131746.htm

Barren Mars

by dhw, Thursday, March 14, 2013, 11:27 (4062 days ago) @ David Turell

Re Evolution of DNA-DAVID: Doubted in this article. Note the odds:-http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103513000791-QUOTE: "As the actual scenario for the origin of terrestrial life is far from being settled, the proposal that it might have been seeded intentionally cannot be ruled out."
 
I like this gently agnostic formulation, but in fairness to ID-ers, the authors also say: "Accurate and systematic, these underlying patterns appear as a product of precision logic and nontrivial computing rather than of stochastic processes. [...] Besides, extraction of the signal involves logically straightforward but abstract operations, making the patterns essentially irreducible to natural origin." The authors clearly favour design, but when one considers the accurate, systematic, precisely logical computing of our fellow animals, with their lesser intelligence, one "cannot "rule out" the possibility that these DNA patterns have designed themselves as they evolved through the cooperation of many lesser intelligences. In this context it's well worth considering the implications of the article on Mars to which David has drawn our attention (and thank you as always for this material):-DAVID: Some of the chemical needs for life were on Mars, but there is no trace of it. The Earth has many more of the properties needed. The following article sounds disappointed:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130312131746.htm-There was a similar article in yesterday's Guardian, emphasizing the positives ... that this particular region could have been habitable. The task of this mission is apparently to find habitable areas, but future missions will start looking for proof of ancient life. However, what interests me is the fact that even then the scientists would only expect to find evidence of microbial life. This leads me to the following speculations, in which I shall leave out the chance theory in Nos. 1) and 2)-1) If there is nothing but microbial life out there, it would be a major blow to the idea that a god created life with the purpose of creating humans. It would raise all kinds of questions about any god's motivation and/or competence. It could mean that unselfconscious "intelligent energy" only got as far as microorganisms, perhaps because the environment was not conducive to innovation.-2) If there is evolved life out there, it could mean that a god tried various experiments, of which life on Earth was just one, or it could mean that unselfconscious "intelligent energy" did the same.
 
3) If there is no other form of life out there, it would be a major blow to the theory that life automatically emerges when conditions are right. It would also raise the question of why a god would bother to create favourable conditions and not use them. It could mean that "intelligent energy" simply made the best choice. The other day I watched a programme about ants being studied under laboratory conditions. The insects were offered a selection of artificial nests of different quality. They sent out scouts, and of course chose the best.

Barren Mars

by David Turell @, Thursday, March 14, 2013, 18:10 (4062 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: 1) If there is nothing but microbial life out there, it would be a major blow to the idea that a god created life with the purpose of creating humans. It would raise all kinds of questions about any god's motivation and/or competence. It could mean that unselfconscious "intelligent energy" only got as far as microorganisms, perhaps because the environment was not conducive to innovation.-I'm betting we are the only life that exists.
> 
> dhw: 2) If there is evolved life out there, it could mean that a god tried various experiments, of which life on Earth was just one, or it could mean that unselfconscious "intelligent energy" did the same.-Interesting suppositions. This is a life friendly universe.-> 
> dhw:3) If there is no other form of life out there, it would be a major blow to the theory that life automatically emerges when conditions are right. It would also raise the question of why a god would bother to create favourable conditions and not use them. It could mean that "intelligent energy" simply made the best choice. The other day I watched a programme about ants being studied under laboratory conditions. The insects were offered a selection of artificial nests of different quality. They sent out scouts, and of course chose the best.-E.O. Wilson thinks ants are smart. They are simply programmed with excellent instincts. The Mars conditions might appear to be right, but that involves many assumptions totally unproven at this moment. The inorganic contents of the sample are consistent with an attempt at life, but we have no idea if an attempt could be made. You are extrapolating far too much theory. Until proven otherwise, life is only on a very privileged planet, Earth.

Barren Mars

by dhw, Friday, March 15, 2013, 12:40 (4061 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: If there is no other form of life out there, it would be a major blow to the theory that life automatically emerges when conditions are right. It would also raise the question of why a god would bother to create favourable conditions and not use them. It could mean that "intelligent energy" simply made the best choice. The other day I watched a programme about ants being studied under laboratory conditions. The insects were offered a selection of artificial nests of different quality. They sent out scouts, and of course chose the best.-DAVID: E.O. Wilson thinks ants are smart. They are simply programmed with excellent instincts.-We are also smart and have excellent instincts (as well as some that are not so excellent!). We have no idea where one quality ends and the other begins. We do not speak ant language (they communicate through chemicals and sounds), but researchers are continually setting tests for insects, birds, animals, and they are continually finding evidence of intelligence that goes beyond the range of automata. However, if you were to say that chemicals instinctively made the right choice when they fitted themselves together here on Earth, well, I'd say that's no more unlikely than them being assembled by chance or by an unknown and unknowable super-intelligence that never needed assembling.
 
DAVID: The Mars conditions might appear to be right, but that involves many assumptions totally unproven at this moment. The inorganic contents of the sample are consistent with an attempt at life, but we have no idea if an attempt could be made. You are extrapolating far too much theory. Until proven otherwise, life is only on a very privileged planet, Earth.-I agree with the above, except that I have not extrapolated any theory or made any assumptions. My post simply speculated on the possible consequences of three hypotheses: 1) nothing but microbial life; 2) evolved life; 3) no life at all. If I didn't like speculating on different possibilities, I wouldn't be discussing any of our subjects!

RSS Feed of thread
powered by my little forum