GEORGE: All mental phenomena can be adequately explained in terms of chemistry and physics.
> 
> In his post under 'Just for Matt' on Wed 6 January at 00.19, Matt drew our attention to a fascinating article about a Professor Henry Markram, who has attracted vast sums of money to finance his project to build an artificial mind. The article contains the following quote:
> 
> "Of course consciousness is one of the deepest scientific mysteries. How do millions of tiny electrical impulses in our heads give rise to the feeling of self, of pain, of love? No one knows."
> 
> Apparently he's wrong. George knows.-Please see the essay I posted for Matt, under "just for Matt' 1/7/10 at 19:40. It fits your discussion with George.


> > Who is carrying it out? What sort of information do they expect to obtain? I'll wait until they report definite results before passing comment.
> 
> I've googled the study, but can't find it as yet, but I suggest you look the the following two sites:-
Another site with one of Parnia's abstracts:-http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/abstracts?terms1=Sam+Parnia&terms2=&terms3=&terms4=sam+s-adenosylmethionine+parnia+


> > > I agree they may be real experiences, although many have been shown to be fraudulent claims, but I know of no cases where the supposed information cannot be explained to have arisen by other means. If paranormal phenomena are real, surely it is possible to bring about far more convincing demonstrations than those practiced by spiritualists!
> > 
> > I know the study is not complete, but why are you ignoring the fact that a hospice study is underway to look at just this issue of obtaining informaion during an NDE? Spending millions of research dollars, pounds, etc., because it is so unbelievable?
> 
> Who is carrying it out? What sort of information do they expect to obtain? I'll wait until they report definite results before passing comment.-I've googled the study, but can't find it as yet, but I suggest you look the the following two sites:-http://www.nderf.org/FAQs.htm-http://caringfortheaged.suite101.com/article.cfm/during_and_after_death-This is the original announcement I saw:-http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080910090829.htm-The main research physician is Sam Parnia:-http://www.scimednet.org/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm-You might look at the book he has published (2005):-http://www.amazon.com/What-Happens-When-Die-Groundbreaking/dp/1401907105


> > I agree they may be real experiences, although many have been shown to be fraudulent claims, but I know of no cases where the supposed information cannot be explained to have arisen by other means. If paranormal phenomena are real, surely it is possible to bring about far more convincing demonstrations than those practiced by spiritualists!
> 
> I know the study is not complete, but why are you ignoring the fact that a hospice study is underway to look at just this issue of obtaining informaion during an NDE? Spending millions of research dollars, pounds, etc., because it is so unbelievable?-Who is carrying it out? What sort of information do they expect to obtain? I'll wait until they report definite results before passing comment.


> I agree they may be real experiences, although many have been shown to be fraudulent claims, but I know of no cases where the supposed information cannot be explained to have arisen by other means. If paranormal phenomena are real, surely it is possible to bring about far more convincing demonstrations than those practiced by spiritualists!-I know the study is not complete, but why are you ignoring the fact that a hospice study is underway to look at just this issue of obtaining informaion during an NDE? Spending millions of research dollars, pounds, etc., because it is so unbelievable?

It's true that we can all make speculations, but what's the point if there is no evidence? Without that it's all just fiction. -Many of us do not need absolute evidence to believe (as you know). I have looked at both possibilities and read what is considered evidence on both sides. But the choice I made to believe in an afterlife really had nothing to do with any information I gathered on either side. My reason or point, at that time, for believing in an afterlife came down to my facing the possibility of my death at an earlier age than what I expected would be my allotted time here..and having plenty of time to ponder it...I did. I had to quit looking outside myself at others perspectives (finding nothing to ease my mind) and start looking inside for the possibility of something that could ease my mind and body. For some reason, unknown to me, the idea of an afterlife eased my mind, and so I began to explore my imagination to expand on just what an afterlife might be like. I have kept that belief (not set in stone of course) for the same reason or point...because it brings ease to my mind and body. -Of course there is a 50/50 chance this belief is not true...but there is that possibility that there is an afterlife. As long as there is even 1% possibility it might be true, there is nothing wrong in our using our God(?) given imagination to play with the idea. -My question is this...if there truly IS an afterlife...how would we know it? How could it be proven there truly is one since we only find out after death?

Bearing in mind that neither of us can do more than speculate on this particular subject, I wonder what you see as being the outcome of the afterlife you describe. Is there any purpose behind the reincarnations? -Thank you for the indulgence dhw! The ultimate purpose that I came up with during the time of my illness, and still sticks with me to this day, is that if (and that's the million dollar question) the consciousness is eternal, then obviously we have found a way to live within the confines of eternity without eternal boredom. There would only be an outcome if there was an end...and being that we could be eternal beings there would be no end so no ending or eventual outcome would be expected. ->If so, how could it be fulfilled if our identity was lost through forgetfulness? -During the in-between time, or afterlife, everything would be remembered from every life and every adventure. Only when we reincarnate back on earth, or visit somewhere forgetfulness is purposely used to forget, would we not remember our true identity. ->And what would happen once the purpose had been achieved? -The ultimate purpose, as I mentioned above, would be to escape eternal boredom, that would be the main achievement of these temporal forgetful experiences. No other ultimate final achievement of purpose other than escaping boredom would be as important...but that's not to say there is not some sort of automatic changing to higher levels with wisdom gained (suggested by some religious thinking)...that's always a possibility too. Again, I'm only working with 10% or less of mentality here. -To my small mind, there is a 50/50 chance there is an afterlife. Since this is true, I only have two outcomes to ponder. With one outcome there is nothing really to ponder. But, on the other hand, if there is and afterlife, then more than likely I am an infinite being having a finite experience. What more could an infinite being ask for than temporary forgetfulness to address the constants? If I am a temporal being, then what's the harm in imagining this life is not all there is? Whichever be true, what IS is what IS. We, as earthly, finite beings, have yet to figure out what we are. So again, my guess is as good as any! The main thing is it makes me feel good to think I am an infinite being having a finite experience...and to each his own, as long as it harms no one. If it makes you feel good to imagine a dreamless sleep, or a final end in death, etc., then believe what you will. This may be the only place in the universe we can come and know very little about who or what we are and what we are doing here and still have a pretty good time..or not.

DT writes: "My wife, Susan, as a child dreamed of past relatives, whom she never met, but recognized from pictures later shown to her by her parents." 
> 
> This statement is rather vague, as all these sorts of stories are. Could you be more explicit as to what it was she "dreamed of past relatives". Did she dream their names, or just what they looked like, or some events that happened to them? And why did she think they were "past relatives"? -She describes as a child giving a description of Uncle Eddie's living room. Uncle Eddie died before she was born. She never saw a picture of that room, but her parents told her what she was describing.-When her paternal grandfather came home from the war (WWII)in the 1940's she described him walking in a white jacket and baggy white pants. She was born in 1958, and knew her grandfather but had never seen those clothes on him. Her parents confirmed the clothing he wore at that time. These are two of the most vivid ones.-And you will remember she can tell me where to look for things, and is most often correct. At my age I can sure forget where I put something down. She also 'knew' a person jumped off the corner wall of a tall building. It was on television a few minutes later. I watched the television, she did not at that moment. Subjective, certainly, but verifiable, just as the NDE patients have had verifiable knowledge of events they could not have known about except during the episode. I've heard a physician from a hospice describe this as occuring any number of times in his experience.-You may not want to accept this, but it is hard to explain by materialism alone.

The idea of reincarnation is common to a lot of thought systems (Hinduism, Kabbalah, lots of African religions, and also modern pagan and new age movements), though I don't think I've ever heard of one in which the soul actually makes its own choices. The sceptic in me naturally wonders why the heck I don't remember anything of any past existences, and how I can possibly hope to learn from them if I don't know about them,-I didn't mean to imply we could remember the past lives or adventures and gain insight from them while here in our temporary lives or in other places that we might choose to go when we leave our "home base." Here on earth we come knowing we will forget what was before...for most that is. The lessons learned and remembered would all be done during our rest time or interlude at home in heaven, the in-between time, in order to assess what we gained from each experience. Forgetfulness and birth is part of the package we are choosing to experience specifically when we come to Earth. Maybe in other places we come fully formed without forgetfulness or the timeline of birth and death. The possibilities are as many as our wee 10% brains can imagine!-I've heard of people, and even know a few, who do recall past lives, some have been hypnotized and remembered...but, that really has nothing to do with the basis of my coming to this theory of the home base afterlife. This idea came to me when I was seeking mental comfort from the pain of this life (while frozen in time) and these ideas relieved my mind of anguish, fear and pain, and even brought me physical and mental relief in the here and now...even tho it's about the there and then. Who is to say what is the true reality of life after death or even of the here and now? It's anyone's guess, and truly, nothing can be proven absolutely...so my theories/fantasies are as good as anyone elses... -
> 
> As for the Big T (Origin of Life, 31 December at 22.35), I'm glad to have been of assistance. Assuming, of course, that my insight is to be trusted!-Trust is the big T for me...I own it now. Of course, as always, I'm wide open to the process of change so it may not be my big T in 1 or 10 years...but for now, it works!


>I recall the African boy who "remembered" scenes from the life of a child who had died before him ... an experience told to me by my wife (who is African). This type of memory is echoed in research done by Professor Ian Stevenson, who specialized in the subject. Wikipedia gives what seems to me a very fair account of the pros and cons:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson -
My wife, Susan, as a child dreamed of past relatives, whom she never met, but recognized from pictures later shown to her by her parents. Remember, I've seen her psychic powers in action. Nothing recently, but always amazing when it happens. She does not remember a past life.